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Only if you completely ignore all of the state other than deep East Texas (and I was born and bred in East Texas, so I get where you're coming from, but while I WANTED Texas to be part of the South when I was a little girl, I grew up and faced the reality not too long after that).
The ONLY way that Texas can be said to be part of the South is if you deliberately ignore everything about it except for one little region that fits that.
Reality is, People within a state don't look at things as one especially a state as large as Texas. I'm from Northeast Texas. Born in Marshall, raised in Longview. San Antonio, El Paso, Odessa all share the same state with a region like East Texas but ask East Texans who they identify with more? Odessa or Shreveport? El Dorado, Arkansas or San Antonio?
States are separated by imaginary lines. You don't cross into one state because of that imaginary line and automatically the culture changes. The accents change. I look at history and geography to determine how culture should be defined.
Texas built this larger than life Texan caricature shortly after the oil boom and in the hay day of the film industry. If you ask most people in let's say East Texas what they identify as generally they won't even identify as a Texan. They'll identify as a EAST TEXAN separating themselves from every other region in Texas. And the rest of the state will treat East Texans as such. Again Texas is not as unified in identity and culture as people would like to believe. Trust me I don't know how many TEXANS I ran into in parts outside of East Texas who didn't know where Longview or other cities in East Texas were. Even in Houston you'll get somebody who has family there that knows of this place but generally it's "What's in East Texas?" "Oh country boy?" "I've heard of Tyler, is that in East Texas?" And usually I just have to say, "It's in between Dallas and Shreveport." so people can know where exactly that's at. We're talking about born and raised Texans too.
You're probably more likely nowadays to hear people in Houston, DFW and definitely Austin identify with their cities before their state. So you'll find more people to have this Island mentality where they do acknowledge and claim Texas as if it's this true Lone Star state but in reality that's mostly for show when we're out of state or making comparisons with another state.
Houston being in the gulf coast region doesn't make Midland a city with gulf coast traits. Whatever region you're in is what you are. If you're Beamount/ Orange or Port Arthur you're in the state of Texas but you're in a shared region with Southwest Louisiana. Northeast Texas you share a region with Northwest Louisiana/ Southwest Arkansas. North Texas you share a region with Oklahoma. South Texas you share a border with Mexico. That's your culture.
Mexico also has a huge influence on Chicago too. So I guess Houston and Dallas are distant cousins to Chicago as well?
I'm sorry but having a large Mexican population doesn't mean Texas is more like California than it is to other southern states. Yes those 2 states are similar in that regards but Texas has a lot more similarities to the rest of the south that makes Texas more relatable than it does to California.
Examples: Texas has a heavily Southern Baptist Evangelical Protestant population in this country. Texas culture and values are heavily influenced by this group.
Politically, Texas aligns more with other southern states than California. Major cities in Texas are generally more liberal and democratic like major cities in other southern states as well. Outside of those major states Texas leans a lot more to the right. California is overwhelmingly left and it's not even close.
Texas is also a gun pro state. Now of course states like Arizona are in that category but so is Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina.
Also Texas was a Jim Crow state. Segregation was required in Texas no different than other states in the south. It was legal in Texas prior to Brown vs. Board of Education. Educational segregation was forbidden in California. Texas also had a huge KKK presence. You didn't find a KKK presence of that caliber in California. Also Texas had one of the highest numbers of lynching's of Black people in the country.
No matter how much Houston and Dallas wants to be like Los Angeles it's not even in the same tier to be considered like LA or a LA version in Texas. Houston is definitely a splash of Baton Rouge in look mixed with Central Florida. It's a international gulf coast city. Not a Westcoast city. It's a Bayou city. Since when was LA or San Diego a Bayou City? DFW has similar structure to LA-Long Beach in how it's principal cities and suburban cities relationship in it's MSA are. But these cities don't feel anything like LA. IMO, from living in Atlanta and Houston there more closely related than LA is to Houston.
If anything Texas east of 35 is Southern with some Mexican influence. Major cities are anomalies because they're major metropolitan areas. And I'll exclude San Antonio and anything south of it from that category. Everything west of 35 can be considered southwest even though it's not completely like New Mexico/ Arizona or Nevada till you get to the western most region of the state. And even than that's the least populated part of the state.
Also cowboys and ranching can be found in Louisiana and Florida as well. Btw, growing up in Northeast Texas I couldn't tell you anything about Cowboys or ranching. Maybe the Dallas Cowboys but not any real Cowboys. Wasn't a common site all my years living there.
From 1882-1968 Arizona/California/Nevada/New Mexico had a combined total of 5. 5 lynching's compared to Texas 352. That's on par with states like Mississippi/Louisiana/Alabama.
Also the African American cultural contributions to the state that simply didn't exist in California till after the great migration. Which btw, most Black Californian's ancestry can be traced back to Louisiana, Mississippi and another southern state called Texas.
With that said, maybe Austin is more west than Southern, there is a gang of California transplants there so that's understandable but what's Western about the cuisine? Tex Mex is not even Western. Houston is a lot of gulf coast cuisine, Creole and Cajun influences,etc. That's not western.
Btw, I'd choose Sweet Georgia Brown, Aunt Irene, Miki's soul food, The Greasy Spoon over any soul food restaurant in Atlanta. Those establishments are in Dallas and Houston btw. Ironically I was told even by local Georgia natives that I should go to Chattanooga or Savannah for better food. Never got the chance to hit up Savannah but the 2 years I lived in Atlanta the best Fried Chicken I had was when we drove to Chattanooga and ate at Champy's. That and Gus's chicken but that's a Memphis transplant. I can go on and on about Atlanta's mediocre food scene.
Wow! I can see you are very passionate about this subject.
It doesn't surprise me that someone from Longview would completely skip over the Hispanic influence that ties the Southwestern United States together.
NYC and Texas are night and days apart. The people and culture are completely different. The people in places in Boston and NYC are going to look a lot different from people in Texas. Irish Catholic, Eastern European Immigrants vs WASPS, Blacks and Mexicans.
People in Los Angeles/Southern California and Dallas/San Antonio look exactly the same...because the people in these cities tend to come from the same places.
You keep talking about major cities being anomalies and that is kinda silly. The major cities are where the most Texans live.....not in East Texas.
Dallas nor FT Worth is really "southern" at all....and that metro area represents nearly 8 million people. Which is the size of medium to large state such as Arizona, Virginia, Massachusetts, Tennessee
East Texas doesn't represent the entire state of Texas. The populations of places like Austin, San Antonio, Houston, and Dallas dwarf all of East Texas.
Last edited by Nuclear Bear; 12-07-2021 at 02:25 PM..
Reality is, People within a state don't look at things as one especially a state as large as Texas. I'm from Northeast Texas. Born in Marshall, raised in Longview. San Antonio, El Paso, Odessa all share the same state with a region like East Texas but ask East Texans who they identify with more? Odessa or Shreveport? El Dorado, Arkansas or San Antonio?
States are separated by imaginary lines. You don't cross into one state because of that imaginary line and automatically the culture changes. The accents change. I look at history and geography to determine how culture should be defined.
Texas built this larger than life Texan caricature shortly after the oil boom and in the hay day of the film industry. If you ask most people in let's say East Texas what they identify as generally they won't even identify as a Texan. They'll identify as a EAST TEXAN separating themselves from every other region in Texas. And the rest of the state will treat East Texans as such. Again Texas is not as unified in identity and culture as people would like to believe. Trust me I don't know how many TEXANS I ran into in parts outside of East Texas who didn't know where Longview or other cities in East Texas were. Even in Houston you'll get somebody who has family there that knows of this place but generally it's "What's in East Texas?" "Oh country boy?" "I've heard of Tyler, is that in East Texas?" And usually I just have to say, "It's in between Dallas and Shreveport." so people can know where exactly that's at. We're talking about born and raised Texans too.
You're probably more likely nowadays to hear people in Houston, DFW and definitely Austin identify with their cities before their state. So you'll find more people to have this Island mentality where they do acknowledge and claim Texas as if it's this true Lone Star state but in reality that's mostly for show when we're out of state or making comparisons with another state.
Houston being in the gulf coast region doesn't make Midland a city with gulf coast traits. Whatever region you're in is what you are. If you're Beamount/ Orange or Port Arthur you're in the state of Texas but you're in a shared region with Southwest Louisiana. Northeast Texas you share a region with Northwest Louisiana/ Southwest Arkansas. North Texas you share a region with Oklahoma. South Texas you share a border with Mexico. That's your culture.
Funny, as I said, born and bred and raised in East Texas, lived in North Texas, Central Texas, have family in San Antonio, and even as a child my father (likewise born, bred, and raised in East Texas, there all the way back pre-Republic) and mother made sure I knew about the history of the entire state. We identified as Texan first and East Texas second.
Mexico also has a huge influence on Chicago too. So I guess Houston and Dallas are distant cousins to Chicago as well?
I'm sorry but having a large Mexican population doesn't mean Texas is more like California than it is to other southern states. Yes those 2 states are similar in that regards but Texas has a lot more similarities to the rest of the south that makes Texas more relatable than it does to California.
Examples: Texas has a heavily Southern Baptist Evangelical Protestant population in this country. Texas culture and values are heavily influenced by this group.
Politically, Texas aligns more with other southern states than California. Major cities in Texas are generally more liberal and democratic like major cities in other southern states as well. Outside of those major states Texas leans a lot more to the right. California is overwhelmingly left and it's not even close.
Texas is also a gun pro state. Now of course states like Arizona are in that category but so is Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina.
Also Texas was a Jim Crow state. Segregation was required in Texas no different than other states in the south. It was legal in Texas prior to Brown vs. Board of Education. Educational segregation was forbidden in California. Texas also had a huge KKK presence. You didn't find a KKK presence of that caliber in California. Also Texas had one of the highest numbers of lynching's of Black people in the country.
No matter how much Houston and Dallas wants to be like Los Angeles it's not even in the same tier to be considered like LA or a LA version in Texas. Houston is definitely a splash of Baton Rouge in look mixed with Central Florida. It's a international gulf coast city. Not a Westcoast city. It's a Bayou city. Since when was LA or San Diego a Bayou City? DFW has similar structure to LA-Long Beach in how it's principal cities and suburban cities relationship in it's MSA are. But these cities don't feel anything like LA. IMO, from living in Atlanta and Houston there more closely related than LA is to Houston.
If anything Texas east of 35 is Southern with some Mexican influence. Major cities are anomalies because they're major metropolitan areas. And I'll exclude San Antonio and anything south of it from that category. Everything west of 35 can be considered southwest even though it's not completely like New Mexico/ Arizona or Nevada till you get to the western most region of the state. And even than that's the least populated part of the state.
Also cowboys and ranching can be found in Louisiana and Florida as well. Btw, growing up in Northeast Texas I couldn't tell you anything about Cowboys or ranching. Maybe the Dallas Cowboys but not any real Cowboys. Wasn't a common site all my years living there.
From 1882-1968 Arizona/California/Nevada/New Mexico had a combined total of 5. 5 lynching's compared to Texas 352. That's on par with states like Mississippi/Louisiana/Alabama.
Also the African American cultural contributions to the state that simply didn't exist in California till after the great migration. Which btw, most Black Californian's ancestry can be traced back to Louisiana, Mississippi and another southern state called Texas.
With that said, maybe Austin is more west than Southern, there is a gang of California transplants there so that's understandable but what's Western about the cuisine? Tex Mex is not even Western. Houston is a lot of gulf coast cuisine, Creole and Cajun influences,etc. That's not western.
Btw, I'd choose Sweet Georgia Brown, Aunt Irene, Miki's soul food, The Greasy Spoon over any soul food restaurant in Atlanta. Those establishments are in Dallas and Houston btw. Ironically I was told even by local Georgia natives that I should go to Chattanooga or Savannah for better food. Never got the chance to hit up Savannah but the 2 years I lived in Atlanta the best Fried Chicken I had was when we drove to Chattanooga and ate at Champy's. That and Gus's chicken but that's a Memphis transplant. I can go on and on about Atlanta's mediocre food scene.
Texas is more Western than Southern. Where does the west begin? In FT Worth.
Hence the name Southwest.
Texas is Texas.
This debate is silly. Does Texas have southern characteristics? Sure it does.
But Texas is NOT the Deep South. It just isn't. This is where all the debating on this thread really comes from.
Way back in 1990 I came back from a family trip that took us through Mobile, Pensacola, and New Orleans. When we returned to Dallas I realize that very few people in Dallas had a thick Southern accent that is common in the South East United States.
Unless I'm in East Texas its very rare(1-2x/year) I ever see a Confederate Flag on a house, or a pick up truck.
When I worked in Georgia the Confederate Flag was everywhere.
Texas also has a lot in common with California. They are essentially cousins.
Although a good case can be made that both could be considerered regions in thier own right, Texas and California are NOT cousins in any sense of the word; and most people from either state would rightfully laughand/or scoff at the notion
California probably was a lot more southern and similar to Texas before the 1960s. Not so anymore.
The black people, white people, and hispanic/mexican people in Texas, California, and the South ARE the same people.... The black people that live in California are mostly descended from the same people the black people in the south are descended from. You know, that is where most of the black people lived throughout most of America's history. The white people in California are descended from all over America but plenty came from the South and Texas. Texas white people are descended from mostly southerners (British stock) and people that came directly from Europe. At least the native Texans. So not much different from California. The hispanic people came from Latin America or Spain in all of these places as well. Texas and California both have lots that were in those lands before they were part of America, Texas moreso. The south also has this to a lesser extent in Florida, Louisiana, and even the other deep southern states.
Also, the California Mexicans are nothing like Texas Mexicans, this is a popular joke between people in the younger generation, here is a popular video that talks about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrH_cPby2Ug
I think if California wasn't where Hollywood was and almost every movie for the last 60 years was set then it would be more similar to Texas. As it is, I see few similarities. Sure we both have hispanic populations but the rest of the country is getting hispanic populations too. They don't come from the same states in Mexico generally. And there is a very sizeable population of Tejanos that are absolutely nothing like anybody from California besides maybe some of the rural country people.
Wow! I can see you are very passionate about this subject.
It doesn't surprise me that someone from Longview would completely skip over the Hispanic influence that ties the Southwestern United States together.
NYC and Texas are night and days apart. The people and culture are completely different. The people in places in Boston and NYC are going to look a lot different from people in Texas. Irish Catholic, Eastern European Immigrants vs WASPS, Blacks and Mexicans.
People in Los Angeles/Southern California and Dallas/San Antonio look exactly the same...because the people in these cities tend to come from the same places.
You keep talking about major cities being anomalies and that is kinda silly. The major cities are where the most Texans live.....not in East Texas.
Dallas nor FT Worth is really "southern" at all....and that metro area represents nearly 8 million people. Which is the size of medium to large state such as Arizona, Virginia, Massachusetts, Tennessee
East Texas doesn't represent the entire state of Texas. The populations of places like Austin, San Antonio, Houston, and Dallas dwarf all of East Texas.
Your whole point is Texas is more western than it is Southern. You painted the entire state as that. That's not the case at all in East Texas and not the case even for most of the metroplex/ Houston or San Antonio. My point is it all depends on what region of Texas you're in.
Funny you bring up NYC though because LA has a long history of New Yorkers and East coast people migrating to California in droves since the gold rush. That's not the case for Texas and it's early settlement. The first wave of White "settlers" came from the Southeast with their enslaved people and continued slavery till the emancipation proclamation. And Texas was so southern that they extended slavery another 2 years before a yankee had to tell those enslaved that they were legally free in the state of Texas.
Also LA has a pretty visible Eastern European population and ethnic diversity that simply doesn't exist on the same level in Texas. LA has the 6th largest Italian population in America. Houston is 29 and Dallas is 42. LA also has the 2nd highest Jewish population in the country. Both LA and NYC are entertainment hubs. The entertainment industry attracts a certain demographic that are noticeably more fashion forward and centered around looks. Even with Dallas superficial flashy reputation it ain't in the same class as LA or NYC. And especially not San Antonio LOL. Also you're forgetting LA/Socal's Asian population. 16.1% percentage of Asian Americans in LA-Long Beach metro. Houston/DFW/Atlanta respectively have 8%, 7%, 6% percentages of Asian Americans.
Also here's another thing California and Texas Mexicans generally come from different parts of Mexico. California has a more diverse population of Mexican immigrants because of where they come from. Mexicans in Texas generally come from a different part of Mexico. Also San Antonio has a different relationship with Mexico/Spanish than cities like Dallas and Houston altogether. I think people forget how diverse the people are in Mexico.
With that said you really think most native Houstonians consider themselves more Western than Southern? I live in Houston and married to a Houstonian. I never heard her or any of her Family identify as Westerners. Most probably won't consider themselves Western. DFW probably depends on what race you're asking. Black Dallasites and even Black Fort Worth residents generally consider themselves southerners. Dallas natives and Burbs probably wouldn't consider themselves Western either. Maybe relating more to the Great Plains region and that's when you can start seeing glimpses of southwest but it ain't Southern California though.
Austin and San Antonio generally probably wouldn't identify with the south that much. But I'll say generally East of I-35 once again will identify with the south much more than the West. Western is not even really an after thought.
Bottom line you said Texas is more Western than Southern. If Mexican culture is the ONLY thing that connects Texas to the rest of New Mexico/Arizona and California than I'm sorry IMO that's simply not enough. And again if a large Mexican population determines one being more Western than Southern than is Chicago more Western than Midwestern since it has a large Hispanic population? Also Georgia has the fastest growing Hispanic population in the nation right now. Is Georgia becoming more Western now because of the growth?
California probably was a lot more southern and similar to Texas before the 1960s. Not so anymore.
The black people, white people, and hispanic/mexican people in Texas, California, and the South ARE the same people.... The black people that live in California are mostly descended from the same people the black people in the south are descended from. You know, that is where most of the black people lived throughout most of America's history. The white people in California are descended from all over America but plenty came from the South and Texas. Texas white people are descended from mostly southerners (British stock) and people that came directly from Europe. At least the native Texans. So not much different from California. The hispanic people came from Latin America or Spain in all of these places as well. Texas and California both have lots that were in those lands before they were part of America, Texas moreso. The south also has this to a lesser extent in Florida, Louisiana, and even the other deep southern states.
Also, the California Mexicans are nothing like Texas Mexicans, this is a popular joke between people in the younger generation, here is a popular video that talks about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrH_cPby2Ug
I think if California wasn't where Hollywood was and almost every movie for the last 60 years was set then it would be more similar to Texas. As it is, I see few similarities. Sure we both have hispanic populations but the rest of the country is getting hispanic populations too. They don't come from the same states in Mexico generally. And there is a very sizeable population of Tejanos that are absolutely nothing like anybody from California besides maybe some of the rural country people.
The bolded is the truth.
People from California and Texas look the same because they are basically the same damn people.
Too many people are putting politics and their political beliefs into these state comparisons. Coastal California doesn't represent all of California.
There are more Republicans in California than there are in Texas
People from Bakersfield aren't much different from people from Midland, Abilene or Odessa.
Your whole point is Texas is more western than it is Southern. You painted the entire state as that. That's not the case at all in East Texas and not the case even for most of the metroplex/ Houston or San Antonio. My point is it all depends on what region of Texas you're in.
Funny you bring up NYC though because LA has a long history of New Yorkers and East coast people migrating to California in droves since the gold rush. That's not the case for Texas and it's early settlement. The first wave of White "settlers" came from the Southeast with their enslaved people and continued slavery till the emancipation proclamation. And Texas was so southern that they extended slavery another 2 years before a yankee had to tell those enslaved that they were legally free in the state of Texas.
Also LA has a pretty visible Eastern European population and ethnic diversity that simply doesn't exist on the same level in Texas. LA has the 6th largest Italian population in America. Houston is 29 and Dallas is 42. LA also has the 2nd highest Jewish population in the country. Both LA and NYC are entertainment hubs. The entertainment industry attracts a certain demographic that are noticeably more fashion forward and centered around looks. Even with Dallas superficial flashy reputation it ain't in the same class as LA or NYC. And especially not San Antonio LOL. Also you're forgetting LA/Socal's Asian population. 16.1% percentage of Asian Americans in LA-Long Beach metro. Houston/DFW/Atlanta respectively have 8%, 7%, 6% percentages of Asian Americans.
Also here's another thing California and Texas Mexicans generally come from different parts of Mexico. California has a more diverse population of Mexican immigrants because of where they come from. Mexicans in Texas generally come from a different part of Mexico. Also San Antonio has a different relationship with Mexico/Spanish than cities like Dallas and Houston altogether. I think people forget how diverse the people are in Mexico.
With that said you really think most native Houstonians consider themselves more Western than Southern? I live in Houston and married to a Houstonian. I never heard her or any of her Family identify as Westerners. Most probably won't consider themselves Western. DFW probably depends on what race you're asking. Black Dallasites and even Black Fort Worth residents generally consider themselves southerners. Dallas natives and Burbs probably wouldn't consider themselves Western either. Maybe relating more to the Great Plains region and that's when you can start seeing glimpses of southwest but it ain't Southern California though.
Austin and San Antonio generally probably wouldn't identify with the south that much. But I'll say generally East of I-35 once again will identify with the south much more than the West. Western is not even really an after thought.
Bottom line you said Texas is more Western than Southern. If Mexican culture is the ONLY thing that connects Texas to the rest of New Mexico/Arizona and California than I'm sorry IMO that's simply not enough. And again if a large Mexican population determines one being more Western than Southern than is Chicago more Western than Midwestern since it has a large Hispanic population? Also Georgia has the fastest growing Hispanic population in the nation right now. Is Georgia becoming more Western now because of the growth?
Texas is more Western than it is Southern.
Texas is generally known as the South-West because it has a combination of Southern and Western culture.
Some people (like yourself) identify yourself as a Southerner..I don't.
I'm also not from East Texas.
I once spent a summer working in Macon, Georgia and the Deep South was a complete culture shock to me.
I find that people from Texas that identify themselves as being Southern want to lump everyone else as being like themselves.
I can tell by the tone of your super long responses to this topic that you don't like certain people from Texas identifying with Western Cities because those cities (LA, Phoenix, San Diego) tend to be seen as more prestigious than cities in the South.
The length of your posts tell me its an emotional thing with you.
Do you know why the Dallas Cowboys are so popular in those three(LA, Phoenix, San Diego) cities?
Its because a lot of people in those cities are from Texas, or are related to people from Texas (Raises hand)
People from Dallas and Los Angeles look exactly the same.
Last edited by Nuclear Bear; 12-07-2021 at 09:56 PM..
To those of you saying Texas is not southern because of minor differences like some foods or cowboy hats, I am going to repeat myself once again.
Texas is still more like other southern states than it is anything else around it. So there are some differences, well, no other southern states are exact twins either.
Let's take a look at New England for comparison. Maine versus Connecticut. They are both New England states, their commonalities arguably outweigh their differences, and yet they are still nearly nothing alike when isolated.
So are either of them now no longer part of New England because they don't feel exactly the same?
Why don't we extend that to the entire northeast? How similar do you think Massachusetts and Pennsylvania truly are? Or how about New Hampshire and New Jersey?
If you aren't getting the point, I'm saying that splitting hairs is pointless. Texas is southern, it is not exactly like Georgia, but so what? It's still more like Georgia than it is Wisconsin, or Nevada, or New York, sooooooo... southern it be.
^^^This has been a main argument of mine all along. I might agree Texas -- other than deep East Texas-- is not the Deep South -- but all things boiled down to the elemental -- it is essentialy part of the South in the sense it shares a common history, heritage, culture, and political/social outlook that is much more akin to that of the other states of the Old Confederacy (i.e. the historic South) than with the generally defined Northeast, Midwest, and Far West. Even than with the Southwest,if such means NM,AZ,soCA,UT,NV(i.e. the Desert/Interior SW).
Something else I confess to finding amusing is that because the Census Bureau considers Texas to be part of the region, that those Texans who -- for whatever reason -- shun a Southern identity -- will nonetheless be considerered Southerners, whenever the next census is taken! Not Westerners or Southwesterners,but Southerners. Whether they like it or not!
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Whether they like it or not!
