Why do Texans deny their southern heritage? (Dallas, Austin: living in, move)

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Muhnay

I watched a great biography on A&E last night on Robert E. Lee, my dad was named after him by the way.

I don't think Texas is Southern.. its too darn big, parts of it are, but there is an area that it starts to loose that southern style.

Lets not Forget the El Paso TX and parts out this way also were in the civil war... not all the battles were in the south.

Hey Muhnay,

I almost started to copy and paste your post to another thread and reply, not wanting to get THIS one started again. Hoping it might get "out of sight out of mind" and die a natural death since just about every opinion under the sun has been expressed on a question that will never get completely settled! LOL

Anyway, I finally decided hell, it has about run its course so the topic can go off to other things related. Such as what you said.

I think I may have seen the A&E biography you mention. Very good one. Lee spent a lot of time in Texas, and was even in San Antonio (then still a colonel in the U.S. Army) when Texas seceded. You mention your daddy was named after him. Interesting, as my own great-grandfather was as well. This was not at all uncommon in Texas/South for quite a while, that is "Robert Lee (surname) for male children.

And you are right about El Paso. In fact, in what kinda seems a bit of a paradox, while that area today has little if any Southern influence, the county went for secession at the time...and almost overwhelmingly.

http://www.texasalmanac.com/politics/secession.pdf

[Muhnay]

Your talking about our Rebel/Yankee discussion where we got a bit heated with one another? Yeah its all good man.. I hold no grudges, and find where we differ on opinion is what makes us better friends... if we agreed we would have nothing to talk about.. lol

The Part in Green was exactly right. Robert Lee (surname) was my dad, everyone called him Bob though.

I love Civil War history.. I don't know enough about it as I want too.. But I gather with a group of friends every other weekend to play a tabletop miniature game where we re-fight many of the battles. I think to move forward we all need to know our past.

Regardless what side of the battle Lee was on, he was a great commander and military leader.. we still use many of his teachings in the US Army to this day. I also think he was a great American. You can not fault a man for standing up for what he believes in, and is willing to risk everything for that belief.

And people think we Texans deny our Southern Heritage. What a laugh.. its still alive and well.

Originally Posted by TexasReb

Hey Muhnay,

I almost started to copy and paste your post to another thread and reply, not wanting to get THIS one started again. Hoping it might get "out of sight out of mind" and die a natural death since just about every opinion under the sun has been expressed on a question that will never get completely settled! LOL

Anyway, I finally decided hell, it has about run its course so the topic can go off to other things related. Such as what you said.

I think I may have seen the A&E biography you mention. Very good one. Lee spent a lot of time in Texas, and was even in San Antonio (then still a colonel in the U.S. Army) when Texas seceded. You mention your daddy was named after him. Interesting, as my own great-grandfather was as well. This was not at all uncommon in Texas/South for quite a while, that is "Robert Lee (surname) for male children.

And you are right about El Paso. In fact, in what kinda seems a bit of a paradox, while that area today has little if any Southern influence, the county went for secession at the time...and almost overwhelmingly.

http://www.texasalmanac.com/politics/secession.pdf

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Muhnay

Your talking about our Rebel/Yankee discussion where we got a bit heated with one another? Yeah its all good man.. I hold no grudges, and find where we differ on opinion is what makes us better friends... if we agreed we would have nothing to talk about.. lol

To be honest, I had to think for a minute about what you meant in your opening sentence. Then I figured it out. No, actually what I meant in my earlier reply to you was not wanting to get the topic of THIS thread going again (Texas regional affiliation), not anything to do with me and you. I really didn't give the latter a thought.

However, since you mentioned the subject of our initial heated exchanges, I consider that past history (no pun intended! LOL). In fact, as you say, it had the effect of making us good friends. Kinda like, well, an analogy that comes to mind...one most Texas males can relate to. We all had our share of fist-fights growing up...but ever notice that later on, many of the parties become good friends? And can even look back and laugh a bit about it? A mutual respect develops probably because they recognize the other is willing to stand up for what they think right. And I think that happened with us. We may not always agree, in fact, sometimes don't, but neither of us hold a grudge in the least. And have realized we have more in common than not!

The Part in Green was exactly right. Robert Lee (surname) was my dad, everyone called him Bob though.

Once again, same here with my g-grandfather!

I love Civil War history.. I don't know enough about it as I want too.. But I gather with a group of friends every other weekend to play a tabletop miniature game where we re-fight many of the battles. I think to move forward we all need to know our past.

What is the name of the game you play with your friends? Just curious as it sounds cool....

Regardless what side of the battle Lee was on, he was a great commander and military leader.. we still use many of his teachings in the US Army to this day. I also think he was a great American. You can not fault a man for standing up for what he believes in, and is willing to risk everything for that belief.

As you say, Lee was not only a great military leader (his victory at Chancellorsville was nothing short of brilliant), but a true gentleman of the highest order. And of course, I like the fact he had a special esteem for the "Texas Brigade" (for good reasons!). He once said something like "No troops have brought greater honor to their state than have my Texans."

And people think we Texans deny our Southern Heritage. What a laugh.. its still alive and well.

Right on, buddy! Right on!

[Muhnay]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

What is the name of the game you play with your friends? Just curious as it sounds cool....

Historical Civil War Battles Game.

The rules for it were written up by the groups founder.. it has been a game 30 years in the making and it is still being tweaked from time to time.. but its lots of fun.. and a way to kill a Saturday afternoon..

We use metal men like this:

[texdav]

Texas has many southern attribute IMO. Especailly the people with their out going acceptance of strangers. I find that the spnish areas are not like this tho. My folks are fro the NE and I always found the peole there grouchy and always whining about something.

[tstone]

If by Spanish you mean Mexican, I haven't had too much trouble being accepted in those types of places out here in Houston. Haven't had a problem in San Antonio either. White-Mexican (Hispanic) interaction in both of these cities is commonplace.

[catman]

The farther east one goes in Texas, the more of a Southern heritage it has. West Texas, hardly at all, which makes sense as it was never truly a part of the Old South. Back then, there was hardly anything out there but Indians and sagebrush. Dallas and Ft Worth were just barely in existence then.

[orbius]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

I can't believe the thread below? Why is this even a question? Texas is most definitely a southern state. Texans are ashamed of their southern heritage and try to distance themselves from their obvious southern roots by saying they are their own thing. It's pretty obvious Texas is southern. For godsake, they were a confederate state during the civil war. Everyone clearly has an accent. Most people are Southern Baptists and have conservative Christian views. Joel Osteen and other famous evangelists are from Texas. Country music has a huge founding base in Texas. The KKK consider Texas one of it's strongest base of operations. What more evidence do you want?

A Texan might respond and say "southern" applies to states like Lousiana, Mississippi, Alabama etc. but that response is weak. There are degrees to everything. Yes, Texas isn't as southern as those states but anyone who travels to Texas can clear observe there is a strong southern heritage there. And when Texans say they don't have an accent, that is hilarious. I'm from California who spent some time in Texas and all of you clearly have accents. Again, it's not as strong as someone from a deep southern state but you clearly have a drawl and it's easily heard. Why are you so ashamed of your southern heritage? You guys are not California and there is nothing western about you.

Texas is somewhat unique. The Germans who settled in Central Texas generally supported the Union or Texas' neutrality in the Civil War. Some 2000 Texans fought for the Union in the Civil War and many more thousands were sympathetic to the Union.

Also a lot of the State frankly does not feel at all Southern it feels South Western. Its a mixed place.

[antgar]

I think that Texas was considered West before it was part of the United States and indeed the entire identity of the American west, boots,hats, and cowboys, comes from Texas more that from another states.

When Texas was annexed to United States it becomes southwest that is their identity and must be respected as such.

Regards!

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by orbius

Texas is somewhat unique. The Germans who settled in Central Texas generally supported the Union or Texas' neutrality in the Civil War. Some 2000 Texans fought for the Union in the Civil War and many more thousands were sympathetic to the Union.

There were two distinct waves of secession. The Lower South (South Carolina thru Texas), then the Upper South (Virginia, Arkansas, North Carolina and Tennesee).

Anyway, there was Unionist sentiment in every state of the Lower South (except perhaps South Carolina), but this did not necessarily translate into being "northern sympathizers". Most of those who originally opposed secession, in Texas and other parts of the Lower South, accepted the verdict and supported the Confederacy once it was a fact. Anyway, on a percentage basis, other than in South Carolina where the vote was unanimous, Texas delegates the secession convention went for secession by a higher percentage than any other state of the Lower South.

As you note, opposition to secession in Texas was highest among the German population in parts of Central Texas, and in some of the counties of North Texas (where many residents were from the Upper South...states which initially rejected secession until they had to chose sides). But again, this was not any different than in many other areas of the Lower South. There was strong Unionist sentiment (again, not necessarily meaning northern sympathy) in southern parts of Louisiana, and in northern Alabama and northern Georgia (in fact, one county in Alabama actually "seceded" from the state! LOL). And in all these states (again, except in South Carolina) at least one Union regiment was raised, not just Texas (and I am not sure at all where you come up with a figure that "many more thousands" were sympathetic to the Union, the historical record is clear on the fact the overwhelming majority of Texans supported the Confederacy).

Also, Texas was the second to last state to be re-admitted to the Union because they flatly refused to go along with certain demands which they felt would unjust. One was declaring secession null and void ad initio, that is, from the beginning. The most they would do is agree that it had been rendered null and void as a result of the War itself. To do otherwise would, they believed, would falsely label their predecesors and those who served the South as traitors who had acted illegally.

Where "Unionist" sentiment was actually strongest was in the states of the Upper South, all of whom voted down secession until the incident at Ft. Sumter and they had to choose sides.

Bottom line is Texas, at the time, was a Lower South state and opposition to secession in certain locales was not noteably different from any other of the sub-region. Here is a table indicating service:

Records indicating percentage of Union service in Southern and border states:

Alabama - 1.4 Arkansas - 10.1 Florida - 6.2 Georgia - .001 Kentucky - 63% Louisiana - 1.1 Maryland - 89% Mississippi - .005 Missouri - 64% North Carolina - 2.7 Oklahoma (Indian Territory) -- no records available, although a noteable majority of the "Five Civilized Tribes" allied with the Confederacy. South Carolina - .006 Tennessee -- 27% Texas - 2.7 Virginia (includes later day West Virginia) -- 17%

Now, after the War is where things DID change a bit in a way that is probably why, when considering the Confederate experience, that Texas is not likely to be the first state to come to mind.

Unlike the states to the east, where the economy and social order was
totally wrecked, Texas emerged relatively unscathed and prosperous via the
cattle boom. And lots and lots of cheap available land to plant cotton.
And then later on, oil was discovered. Reconstruction not withstanding,
it was fairly easy for Texans to put the War behind them and move on. And
by Texans I also mean the thousands of settlers from the other Southern
states who moved west to get a new start, such as my own ancestors from
Mississippi and Alabama. Of course all these newcomers brought with them
their language, culture, traditions, etc, which made a lasting impact on the
state so that it was unquestionably Southern in character.

At the same time, even though Confederate monuments, holidays, celelebrations, and icons, and a lasting contempt and bitterness for yankees were widespread, it didn't quite have the intensity that existed in the Deep South. The reason again being there were ample new opportunities available to forget the past somewhat. By contrast, for those who stayed in states like Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, etc, the ruin and devastation and memories of the war made it natural to sort of entrench into a nostalgia and build back on Old South and Confederate glory. In other words, over time, these circumstances had the effect of Texas becoming more TEXAS. While certain other states of the former Confederacy became, wellll, more "Southern."

Oh well, just a few more thoughts on a topic that needs to fade for a while! LOL

Gotta go pick up my daughter (meeting her mother in Oklahoma City), so see everyone later. Y'all all have a good afternoon!