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Old 06-28-2009, 03:22 AM
 
Location: Texas
27,804 posts, read 22,309,657 times
Reputation: 32935
1. The original poster is from Ohio, not Texas.
I've lived in both places, and I would not consider being compared to California a compliment.
2. The people in my top-ranked medical school who bragged the most were at the top of the class, AOA, etc.

Lol...Texas pride is not bragging. It's pride. Learn the difference.
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Old 06-28-2009, 03:50 AM
 
9,010 posts, read 9,413,552 times
Reputation: 6347
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
2. The people in my top-ranked medical school who bragged the most were at the top of the class, AOA, etc.
I doubt that. I'm not going to get into specifics but let's just say that I attended a top medical school in California and did well. The people who were in the top 10% were too busy studying to get involved with any needless drama. I can't imagine that trait would be different at other medical schools. Those who know they are the best don't receive any thrill telling everyone else because they are aware everyone already is aware they are the best. Only the posers felt they needed attention.

If Texans were genuinely proud then they wouldn't feel compelled to brag. For someone who attended a top medical school, I'm suprised that concept fails to resonate with you.
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Old 06-28-2009, 04:31 AM
 
Location: Texas
27,804 posts, read 22,309,657 times
Reputation: 32935
*grin* There were the quiet, brilliant ones (and we knew who they were), and there were the ones that consistently flashed their test papers around every single exam period...some say our class was a bit...outspoken.

If you don't understand the Texas attitude, you just don't. Don't try to psychoanalyze it and saddle it with attributes you assume to be true. Or that would be true under circumstances you comprehend. I promise you no one here is speakin' up because they secretly feel inferior or insecure. Lol!

Again...difference between pride/confidence and arrogance/bragging.
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Old 06-28-2009, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
16,163 posts, read 21,801,705 times
Reputation: 12250
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
*grin* There were the quiet, brilliant ones (and we knew who they were), and there were the ones that consistently flashed their test papers around every single exam period...some say our class was a bit...outspoken.

If you don't understand the Texas attitude, you just don't. Don't try to psychoanalyze it and saddle it with attributes you assume to be true. Or that would be true under circumstances you comprehend. I promise you no one here is speakin' up because they secretly feel inferior or insecure. Lol!

Again...difference between pride/confidence and arrogance/bragging.
As I said, I suspect that azriverfan is doing some projecting - and the more posts I read by that poster, the more that suspicion is reinforced.

azriverfan, here's a clue: everyone isn't just like you. They don't do things for the same reasons that you would be doing them if you did them.

You do realize that feeling the necessity to persistently run down an entire state is an even clearer indicator of feelings of inferiority, don't you?
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Old 06-28-2009, 09:55 AM
 
5,031 posts, read 7,708,406 times
Reputation: 2301
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
1. The original poster is from Ohio, not Texas.
I've lived in both places, and I would not consider being compared to California a compliment.
2. The people in my top-ranked medical school who bragged the most were at the top of the class, AOA, etc.

Lol...Texas pride is not bragging. It's pride. Learn the difference.

Have you ever looked at the some of the synonyms of pride? A few are conceit, self-esteem, egotism, and vanity. Don't forget either that it's one of the seven deadly sins, a very objectionable vice. Of course, we're all guilty of one or more of them.

The antonym of pride is humility.

Therefore, I have to disagree that bragging and pride are not synonymous. It is something I learned...oh so many years ago.
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Old 06-28-2009, 10:03 AM
 
Location: North Dallas/West Campus, Austin
1,562 posts, read 2,613,952 times
Reputation: 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan. View Post
I know exactly what you mean. I remember the mental games played in medical school and residency. The smartest and highest ranked people in the class were unassuming, humble and laid back. The ones who were arrogant and cocky were often in the middle of the class. When I see threads entitled "Texas is a lot like California", it demonstrates the inferiority complex afflicting most Texans. Why do they have to compare themselves to California? Why can't Texas be great on it's own? If Texans genuinely believed their state was was so amazing, they wouldn't feel compelled at every chance to tell people that. You don't see threads in the California forum entitled "California is a lot like Texas."

Texans also deny their southern heritage. It's pretty obvious Texas is southern. By saying it's southern, that is in no way saying they are exactly like the states in the deep south, but it does say they have more in common with the south and southern culture than any other culture. Rather than embrace that proudly, Texans try to deny it by saying they are not a part of the south, but rather they are their own entity. This is just an attempt to disassociate themselves from the south which is another example of their insecurity.
What Texans do you know who deny this? EIGHTY-SIX PERCENT of Texans consider the state to be southern, and I wouldn't doubt that many of the other fourteen percent aren't actually from Texas.

Secondly, NO TEXANS feel any need to compare this state to California. We DON'T WANT to be like California. The person making the comparison is from the outside and is making a few observiations in their opinion, many of which weren't particularly accurate. We don't feel any need to be similar to California, and in fact, the further apart we are the better.

I don't understand why you're so negative toward Texas and so defensive of California when you're from ARIZONA! Why you feel the need to offer insight into states you don't live in and, most likely, have never spend any significant time in, is beyond me.
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Old 06-28-2009, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Hutto, Tx
8,624 posts, read 15,817,204 times
Reputation: 2313
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan. View Post
I doubt that. I'm not going to get into specifics but let's just say that I attended a top medical school in California and did well. The people who were in the top 10% were too busy studying to get involved with any needless drama. I can't imagine that trait would be different at other medical schools. Those who know they are the best don't receive any thrill telling everyone else because they are aware everyone already is aware they are the best. Only the posers felt they needed attention.

If Texans were genuinely proud then they wouldn't feel compelled to brag. For someone who attended a top medical school, I'm suprised that concept fails to resonate with you.
As someone who's not from Texas, I'm surprised you claim to know anything about Texans.
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Old 06-28-2009, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Hutto, Tx
8,624 posts, read 15,817,204 times
Reputation: 2313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canine*Castle View Post
Have you ever looked at the some of the synonyms of pride? A few are conceit, self-esteem, egotism, and vanity. Don't forget either that it's one of the seven deadly sins, a very objectionable vice. Of course, we're all guilty of one or more of them.

The antonym of pride is humility.

Therefore, I have to disagree that bragging and pride are not synonymous. It is something I learned...oh so many years ago.
Then wouldnt californians and Ny'ers also be guilty of this? Many of them think there is nothing between their 2 coasts, only they exist. And what about the NY and Chicago Pizza debate about which is better? I'm sure there's some pride afoot there? And more than a few California liberals feel that only they are enlightened and open minded and the rest of the US is closed minded? I think that also is part and parcel of some bragging and pride.
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Old 06-28-2009, 10:22 AM
 
Location: North Dallas/West Campus, Austin
1,562 posts, read 2,613,952 times
Reputation: 549
azriver, I'm going to quote an old post from TexasReb that presents actual research into whether or not Texans consider themselves to be southerers. I really don't care whether you believe it, but here's just some evidence to show you that Texans DON'T dispute that they are Southerners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
I apologize in advance for the lengthy post! LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady
A Southerner is, and a Southerner know he is...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady
And, as you know, TexReb, I'm a Texan through and through, from East Texas, even, and I don't consider myself to be a Southerner, I consider myself to be a Texan.


And that is fine. I consider myself to be a Texan too. And a Southerner as well. I respect your perspective on the matter, and I hope you reciprocate.

Quote:
The poll is flawed in the choices given, as your statement that most Texans consider themselves to be Southerners is flawed. Both are based on your own particular biases.
I have posted the data before. It is not just my opinion, but that taken from both the 7 year Southern Focus Poll and from an article in Annals of the American Geographer (Changing Usage of Four American Regional Labels by James R. Shortridge). Both show that the majority of Texans, when asked, considered themselves to live in the South and be Southererners. To wit:

Southern Focus Poll (with comments by Dr. John Shelton Reed who conducted the poll via the UNC at Chapel Hill in the Southern Studies department), as well as an article on the study which appeared in many newspapers when it was first released:

WHERE IS THE SOUTH?

The South has been defined by a great many characteristics, but one of the most interesting definitions is where people believe that they are in the South. A related definition is where the residents consider themselves to be southerners, although this is obviously affected by the presence of non-southern migrants.

Until recently we did not have the data to answer the question of where either of those conditions is met. Since 1992, however, 14 twice-yearly Southern Focus Polls conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have asked respondents from the 11 former Confederate states, Kentucky, and Oklahoma "Just for the record, would you say that your community is in the South, or not?" Starting with the third of the series, the same question was asked of smaller samples of respondents from West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, the District of Columbia, and Missouri (all except Missouri included in the Bureau of the Census's "South"). Respondents from the 13 southern states were also asked "Do you consider yourself a Southerner, or not?," while starting with the second survey those from other states were asked "Do you consider yourself or anyone in your family a Southerner?," and if so, whether they considered themselves to be Southerners.

It is clear from these data that if the point is to isolate southerners for study or to compare them to other Americans the definition of the South employed by the Southern Focus Poll (and, incidentally, by the Gallup Organization) makes sense, while the Bureau of the Census definiton does not. We already knew that, of course, but it's good to be able to document it.

--John Shelton Reed

Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)

Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)

West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)

Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)

Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)

West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) New Mexico 13 (68) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16) Utah 11 (70) Indiana 10 (208) Illinois 9 (362) Ohio 8 (396) Arizona 7 (117) Michigan 6 (336)

CHAPEL HILL – Ask even educated Americans what states form "the South," and you’re likely to get 100 different answers. Almost everyone will agree on Deep South states -- except maybe Florida -- but which border states belong and which don’t can be endlessly debated.

Now, the Southern Focus Poll, conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, provides strong support for including such states as Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia don’t belong anymore, if they ever did.

Fourteen polls, surveying a total of more than 17,000 people between 1992 and 1999 show, for example, that only 7 percent of D.C. residents responding say that they live in the South.

Only 14 percent of Delaware residents think they live in the region, followed by Missourians with 23 percent, Marylanders with 40 percent and West Virginians with 45 percent.

"We found 84 percent of Texans, 82 percent of Virginians, 79 percent of Kentuckians and 69 percent of Oklahomans say they live in the South," says Dr. John Shelton Reed, director of the institute. "Our findings correspond to the traditional 13-state South as defined by the Gallup organization and others, but is different from the Census Bureau’s South, which doesn’t make sense."

The U.S. Census Bureau includes Delaware, D.C., Maryland and West Virginia in its definition.

"Clearly some parts of Texas aren’t Southern – whatever you mean by that -- and some parts of Maryland are," Reed said. "But sometimes you need to say what ‘the Southern states’ are, and this kind of information can help you decide. Our next step is to look inside individual states like Texas, break the data down by county, and say, for example, where between Beaumont and El Paso people stop telling you that you’re in the South."

A report on the findings, produced by UNC-CH’s Institute for Research in Social Science, will appear in the June issue of the journal "Southern Cultures." Reed, who directs the institute, says the results should interest many people including survey, marketing and census researchers.

"Personally, I think they ought to be interesting too to ordinary folk who are curious about where people stop telling you you’re in the South as you’re travelling west or north," he said. "Where that is has been kind of hard to say sometimes."

Perhaps surprisingly, 11 percent of people in Utah, 10 percent in Indiana and slighter fewer people in Illinois, Ohio, Arizona and Michigan claim to be Southerners.

"That’s because in the early part of this century millions of people left the South, and their migration was one of the great migrations not just in American history, but in world history," Reed said. "Their children may not think of themselves as Southern, but they still do."

The UNC-CH sociologist said he was surprised that 51 percent of Floridians describe themselves as Southerners even though 90 percent know their community is in the South.

"Florida is the only state in lower 48 where most people living there weren’t born there," he said. "In fact, most of them weren’t born in the South, much less in Florida."

Because of the South’s growing economy, only between 90 and 80 percent of residents of Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, Georgia and the Carolinas said they are Southerners, the surveys showed.

"If you want to define the South as where people say it is, now we have a better sense of it," Reed said. "For the most part, it confirms what I already suspected, which is why I’m glad to see it. This work shows something we wanted to show, but haven’t been able to before."


*******

From the Annals of the Association of American Geographers, In Vol. 7, Number 3 of this journal (September 1987), in the article Changing Usage of Four American Regional Labels, Professor James R. Shortridge (Department of Geography, University of Kansas) seeks, through a statistically random analysis of identification cards sent out with a product, to identify contemporary trends of regional self-identification in terms of the four labels “East”, “West”, “South”, and “Midwest.” Here is a ranked list in terms of percentage of people who chose “South” as their primary regional identification.

More than 75%: 1. Louisiana – 194/199 – 97.49% 2. Mississippi – 72/75 – 96% 3. Alabama – 122/130 – 93.85% 4. Florida – 244/277 – 88.09% 5. Georgia – 147/168 – 87.5% 6. Tennessee – 156/190 – 82.11%

More than 50%: 1. Arkansas – 56/77 – 72.73% 2. South Carolina – 66/91 – 72.53% 3. Texas – 526/739 – 71.18% 4. North Carolina – 87/145 – 60%

Quote:
Texas is not part of the South just because it happens to be contiguous to Louisiana, or because some of the people that went into making it up happened to come from, or through, the South. (And I include most, but not all, of my own ancestors there), or because some of us (but not most by far) want to consider it part of the South. I actually have come to the conclusion that Texas, in and of itself, is a region (given that it's large enough and varied enough, geographically, to be five very different states).
I think we all agree that Texas -- because of its large size and unique history -- can be considered a region unto itself. However, your contention that is it not part of the South is your opinion only (and just as "biased" as you say mine is). Just as mine opposite is my opinion. The best I can do is back it up with valid research.

Quote:
So why not solve it that way? Make "Texas" a region much like Northeast, South, Southwest, Midwest, Northwest. Then we can discuss all the different cultures and peoples that went into the making up of the state, rather than claiming that it's South, Southwest, or Midwest, none of which are entirely accurate.
Sure, "we" can "solve" it that way. But fact is, states will always be grouped into regions if by no other reason than geographical convenience. Thus, I maintain that when Texas is put into a region (which it will be) then it is essentially a Southern state. That is, it shares much more in common, both historically and culturally (and thru self-identification via Texans themselves) with the Southeastern states as opposed to the Midwest, Far West, or Northeast.

That is and always has been, my main point on this topic. I understand fully that you don't consider Texas part of the South or yourself a Southerner. I am sure you have good reasons, and you have stated them in the past. All I ask is that you accept that there are others who feel differently. With all due respect, THL, many of your posts on this subject have contain the somewhat patronizing implication that those of us who DO consider ourselves both Texan and Southern are doing so out of groundless wishful thinking. Sorry, but it ain't so. Many of us actually do -- believe it or not -- base our opinions on solid evidence and research (as we see it) as opposed to Rhett Butler and Scarlet O' Hara fantasies! LOL

And in the end we just agree to disagree! Really, my biggest objection to this whole thread is that it just opens up an old can of worms that has been done to death. I am not going to change your mind or vice-versa.
So regardless of what you might want to think, most of us consider ourselves to be Southern. Most of us think as ourselves as Texans first and foremost, and that Texas is it's own thing, independent of any regional label, BUT it is not accurate to say it's not southern. It's just Texan first and Southern second, rather than the other way around as it is in most other Southern states.
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Old 06-28-2009, 10:36 AM
 
5,031 posts, read 7,708,406 times
Reputation: 2301
Quote:
Originally Posted by love roses View Post
Then wouldnt californians and Ny'ers also be guilty of this? Many of them think there is nothing between their 2 coasts, only they exist. And what about the NY and Chicago Pizza debate about which is better? I'm sure there's some pride afoot there? And more than a few California liberals feel that only they are enlightened and open minded and the rest of the US is closed minded? I think that also is part and parcel of some bragging and pride.
I stated we're all guilty of one or several of the seven sins. Pride and its meaning is just something I learned many years ago was a very objectionable trait, one of which I'm not guilty. I am guilty of sloth. If I weren't slothful, I wouldn't spend so much time on the computer, a poor trait I haven't yet been able to shake. It's a work in progress.
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