How far west into Texas does the southern accent extend? (El Paso: mold, title)

[solytaire]

More importantly, how the hell is Texas ranked #15 going into this season!?..I mean I could understand not being in the top 5. But not even the top 10? come on.

[Westerner92]

I don't think that map is entirely correct. The Lubbock and Midland areas are included, but the Panhandle isn't. The people in the panhandle have the same accent as everybody else in West Texas (and Eastern New Mexico).

[theSUBlime]

It should also be noted that larger cities like Dallas and Houston tend to have neutral accent.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by theSUBlime

It should also be noted that larger cities like Dallas and Houston tend to have neutral accent.

This is true, as like cities like Atlanta, Richmond, Charlottville, etc, in southeastern and south-central parts of the United States. The large number of northern migrants into these big city areas over the years has definitely diluted the accent as compared with the larger region!

[TexasHorseLady]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

Right on, Case. Where I think the confusion comes in is where the stereotypical "Southern accent" of Gone With the Wind, has become thought of as THE Southern accent. When, actually, it is only one of many sub-varities of Southern American English.

Kinda like, to use a semi-analogy, when the landscape of Texas becomes entrenched in American mindset as to be the old western movies. And, when some see the deep lush forests, or the Gulf, or Hill Country, they think, well, that is not REALLY Texas. Even though it IS! LOL

Same, sorta, with a Southern accent. It IS, even if Hollywood myth says otherwise.

TexasReb, I'm afraid this comes perilously close to defining different things as the same thing because you want them to be.

Which is to say, if someone points out that many of the accents in Texas don't fit the accents in the undeniably "Southern" states, "Well, even if it sounds different than Southern accents, it's just a different kind of Southern accent, because my premise that Texas is a Southern state depends on that being the case."

[Bass&Catfish2008]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

Fine by me - that's my actual preference! The various accents of Texas come from the many contributions (Southern, Mexican, German, the list goes on) of the many cultures that came together to make Texas what it is today. No one culture gets to be "top dog" there, I don't think.

>>>>
No one culture gets to be "top dog" there, I don't think
<<<<

Oh, I don't think it's about a culture being Top Dog. I think it is about what is really true/reality of the culture of Texas at large.

My perception of Texas dialect, with the exception of the extreme latter southern part of Texas which has predominantly Mexican culture (also El Paso), is that it is clearly southern (again, this is not the southern of the "eastern" [read Deep South] but a "western" south type of speech.)

The Texas dialect from Fort Worth all the way up to Witchita Falls, for instance, is very similar to what I grew up speaking in central Oklahoma. I've lived on the east and west coast and I've been accused of being from the from the Deep South (Alabama specifically, which I was not necessarily excited about). My point is, that people from the East/West/Midwest definitely hear an accent that they perceive as southern. You and I know it is not anywhere near as thick as the drawl from someone from the pines in Georgia. However, the natives from the south-central states (NOT the transplants...LOL) definitely speak a derivative of southern speech and this speech is by far the most common dialect in Texas....JMHO from my experience of traveling around this great state.

[atxcio]

Originally Posted by solytaire

More importantly, how the hell is Texas ranked #15 going into this season!?..I mean I could understand not being in the top 5. But not even the top 10? come on.

Not to worry, Texas is in the top 10 this season:

College Football Polls - CBSSports.com 120, BCS and AP Top 25

[solytaire]

Originally Posted by atxcio

Not to worry, Texas is in the top 10 this season:

College Football Polls - CBSSports.com 120, BCS and AP Top 25

Whew!! thanks atxcio...close call though...Unfortunately, although the AP has Texas tied for #10 (which I can accept)...the BCS has Texas at a ridiculous #19!!

[TexasHorseLady]

Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008

>>>>
No one culture gets to be "top dog" there, I don't think
<<<<

Oh, I don't think it's about a culture being Top Dog. I think it is about what is really true/reality of the culture of Texas at large.

My perception of Texas dialect, with the exception of the extreme latter southern part of Texas which has predominantly Mexican culture (also El Paso), is that it is clearly southern (again, this is not the southern of the "eastern" [read Deep South] but a "western" south type of speech.)

The Texas dialect from Fort Worth all the way up to Witchita Falls, for instance, is very similar to what I grew up speaking in central Oklahoma. I've lived on the east and west coast and I've been accused of being from the from the Deep South (Alabama specifically, which I was not necessarily excited about). My point is, that people from the East/West/Midwest definitely hear an accent that they perceive as southern. You and I know it is not anywhere near as thick as the drawl from someone from the pines in Georgia. However, the natives from the south-central states (NOT the transplants...LOL) definitely speak a derivative of southern speech and this speech is by far the most common dialect in Texas....JMHO from my experience of traveling around this great state.

To me, it (well, a lot of the accents in Texas) is NOT "clearly Southern". I can tell most any Texas accent (with the possible exception of Deep East Texas down where the border between Louisiana and Texas is a bit fuzzy) from any accent of the actual Southern states, AND I can tell that it is an accent from some part of Texas (and, usually, though not always, which part).

Yes, some Southern states were the pass-through from the Northeast and/or Europe to Texas (some of my ancestors came that route on their way from England and Scotland and Ireland, others at the same time came through Illinois and on down), and thus the Southern states made a contribution to Texas. But that doesn't make Texas a Southern state any more than it makes California a Southern or Northeastern or Mexican state just because the settlers of that state came from elsewhere.

Texas is Texas, and that's the region that it is. Given that it's large enough to be divided into 5 states, that's as it should be.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

TexasReb, I'm afraid this comes perilously close to defining different things as the same thing because you want them to be.

Which is to say, if someone points out that many of the accents in Texas don't fit the accents in the undeniably "Southern" states, "Well, even if it sounds different than Southern accents, it's just a different kind of Southern accent, because my premise that Texas is a Southern state depends on that being the case."

Sorry THL, but with all sincere and due respect, I think it is you who is trying to make distinctions that don't exist because they don't fit what, in this case, you don't want them to be.

In the case of Texas speech, I have cited valid lingustic research time after time to back up my points. And it is not my research or observations that I use to make the case, but those of professionals in the field. On the other hand, your case seems to boil down to that the typical Texas accent (if such a thing exists, since there are varations within the state) is not part of Southern American English based on premises that really come down to your own opinion. Well, I value my opinion as much as the next guy, but I try not to confuse it with that of experts in the area in question. LOL

Of course, one's own experience and observations ARE going to count for quite a bit. In this case, yes, mine confirm what most linguists say. Just as is the point Scraper Enthusiast, a Georgian, made initially. Which is that the dialect spoken in Texas is essentially Southern speech. But again, these opinions are backed up by numerous scientific studies on the subject. In fact, that good friend of mine I mentioned from north Alabama in an earlier post? She is one of those "Deep South purists" who confines the definition of the "true South" to only 3 to 5 states. But will freely admit that, in terms of speech at least, Texas fits the bill as generally Southern. LOL

Your second paragraph is, I think --again with all due respect --a case of either misunderstanding what I said, or re-wording what I said to suit. If I understand you correctly, you are accusing me (and I hasten to add, I don't mean that in a negative way!) of making spurious distinctions and rationales to suit my premises.

On the contrary, it is you who seems to be conveniently making the unsupported argument. For instance, it proceeds from what has been refuted time after time. That is, that there is a single uniform Southern accent in even the states which are, as you say, "undeniably Southern". There isn't. As has been pointed out, folks in Tennnessee speak very differently than those in Mississippi or south Alabama. Which is in turn different from south Louisiana, which differs from coastal Georgia.

However, there exists in this country (which followed settlement patterns) a speech region in the southeastern and south-central parts of the country which share definite similarities in terms of accent and idiom. It is known as Southern American English, and most of Texas is a part of that linguistic region. It is easily distinguished from the type spoken the northeast, north, midwest and far West, even if many different variations and varieties exist within.

I hope you might read the conclusions on the latest and most extensive research ever done on "Texas tawk". And the conclusion is (pasted many times):

“The most basic explanation of a Texas accent is that it’s a Southern accent with a twist,” said Professor Bailey, who has determined that the twang is not only spreading but also changing.

Along those lines, here is another (main link and excerpt) which I came across yesterday:

Do You Speak American . Sea to Shining Sea . American Varieties . Texan | PBS

Actually the uniqueness of TXE is probably more an artifact of the presence of Texas in the popular imagination than a reflection of linguistic circumstances. Only a few features of Texas speech do no occur somewhere else. Nevertheless, in its mix of elements both from various dialects of English and from other languages, TXE is in fact somewhat different from other closely related varieties.

As the settlement history suggests, TXE is a form of Southern American English and thus includes many of the lexical, grammatical, and phonological features of Southern American English

But anyway, this has run on long enough. LOL A point to be made though is that, at least in terms of the language, the argument (if there is one) is not with me per se, but those in the field of study who made the conclusions (or simply verfied what is historical fact) to begin with.