Houston vs. Dallas (Sugar Land, Missouri City, Bellaire: map of, routes, plans)

[homeinatx]

Originally Posted by OmShahi

It's still a ever growing city, I'm sure they'll make accommodations for those things eventually. I think they will skip out on the cabs and go straight to LRT, IMHO.

So is Austin, so is San Antonio, but the growth in Fort Worth is not exactly happening downtown - more suburban sprawl if anything - though I like the residential conversions of the old Art Deco train station in FW. Austin just built the tallest residential tower west of the Mississippi. Downtown San Antonio has more loft and historic building residential conversions than any city in Texas. I like downtown Fort Worth fine, but way, way more people actually live in downtown San Antonio or downtown Austin than downtown FW. If I were to rank Texas for urban living.- downtown Fort Worth would probably come in 3rd:

1. Downtown San Antonio/Austin
2. Downtown FW
3. Montrose/Museum District - Houston
4. East End Galveston, Uptown Dallas

[dv1033]

Originally Posted by homeinatx

Not really - while downtown Fort Worth is fun for a weekend, and more of an urban space than downtown Houston or Dallas - it is still too tourist and entertainment oriented to be livable. It is basically too small- just Sundance Square and a few adjacent blocks. You cannot walk to a decent grocery store like the Whole Foods flagship on 6th and Lamar in Austin, and most of the restaurants in downtown Fort Worth won't deliver to your apartment! I have also never managed to hail a cab off the street in downtown Fort Worth, though I have seen one or two!

I didn't realize 6th and Lamar was urban central? Looking at satellite images of this urban grocery shopping experience I see it a nice suburban-style surface parking lot in front of it. Yes you people in Austin surely live in urban paradise.

[stoneclaw]

Originally Posted by dallasboi

.For example...a city with commutter rail,light rail,trolly and streetcar system would be viewed as better than a city with a BIG bus fleet that carry more people to park & ride stations.........

According to who? You?

Buses seem to work just fine as the predomniant mode of transportation in Las Vegas

[homeinatx]

Originally Posted by dv1033

I didn't realize 6th and Lamar was urban central? Looking at satellite images of this urban grocery shopping experience I see it a nice suburban-style surface parking lot in front of it. Yes you people in Austin surely live in urban paradise.

6th and Lamar is on the western edge of downtown Austin. All of the new condo developments are within half a mile. The parking lot on the western side is less than 25% of the footprint of the building. They deliver to anywhere in downtown Austin. What 80 000 square foot grocery store do you have in downtown Dallas, Houston or Fort Worth? Plus there are a couple of smaller gourmet grocery stores all in walking distance.

P.S. I never said downtown Austin was urban paradise, just that it and downtown San Antonio are a helluva lot more urban than anywhere else in Texas

[dv1033]

Originally Posted by homeinatx

6th and Lamar is on the western edge of downtown Austin. All of the new condo developments are within half a mile. The parking lot on the western side is less than 25% of the footprint of the building. They deliver to anywhere in downtown Austin. What 80 000 square foot grocery store do you have in downtown Dallas, Houston or Fort Worth? Plus there are a couple of smaller gourmet grocery stores all in walking distance.

That's not downtown Austin unless downtown has been subjectively pushing its boundaries to include all the new development that's been happening. Midtown Houston has a Randells similar in size to Whole Foods and there are already several small grocery stores in downtown. Not sure about Dallas.

P.S. I never said downtown Austin was urban paradise, just that it and downtown San Antonio are a helluva lot more urban than anywhere else in Texas

I will admit downtown Austin and SA are more active urban centers but certainly not helluva more urban than Downtown Houston and Downtown Austin. Both Dallas and Houston have more urban areas than Austin and SA, it's just that Austin's main urban area is more active.

[Cowboys fan in Houston]

Originally Posted by homeinatx

So is Austin, so is San Antonio, but the growth in Fort Worth is not exactly happening downtown - more suburban sprawl if anything - though I like the residential conversions of the old Art Deco train station in FW. Austin just built the tallest residential tower west of the Mississippi. Downtown San Antonio has more loft and historic building residential conversions than any city in Texas. I like downtown Fort Worth fine, but way, way more people actually live in downtown San Antonio or downtown Austin than downtown FW. If I were to rank Texas for urban living.- downtown Fort Worth would probably come in 3rd:

1. Downtown San Antonio/Austin
2. Downtown FW
3. Montrose/Museum District - Houston
4. East End Galveston, Uptown Dallas

Completely subjective.

[atxcio]

Originally Posted by dv1033

I didn't realize 6th and Lamar was urban central? Looking at satellite images of this urban grocery shopping experience I see it a nice suburban-style surface parking lot in front of it. Yes you people in Austin surely live in urban paradise.

The satellite image really doesn't tell much of the story. There are 3 levels of underground parking, as well as a nearby parking garage, all much larger than the small surface level lot. It's also got several bus stops around it, sidewalks everywhere, and somewhere in the range of 2000 condo units within 3 blocks. And this huge grocery store is in a 6 story building.

Show me the DFW or Houston equivalent, please.

[atxcio]

Originally Posted by homeinatx

Ok. I think the whole premise of this thread is wrong. There are no REAL cities in Texas. There are huge collections of suburbs in search of a city in the DFW and Houston MSA's. The DFW MSA is particularly tragic for the 4th largest MSA in the U.S. All the amenities may be there but they are monstrously spread out. You need to get in a car to blow your nose in 95% of the metroplex. Houston is a little better but not much. For urban and urbane living in Texas, downtown San Antonio and downtown Austin are the only truly urban neighborhoods in the state, i.e places where you can walk to a hundred plus bars and restaurants, a few art galleries, grocery stores, clothing shops, dry cleaners, libraries, schools etc - i.e. everything you need for your everyday life is no more than half a mile away from your home. The inner ring neighborhoods of east Dallas and faux urbanist Uptown in Dallas, Montrose, Rice Village and the Heights in Houston are not there yet. Dallas has potentially great urban infrastructure. Deep Ellum could have been the Soho of the 21st century - the bones are there, but instead it became an entertainment district of dubious viability. While DART is good for TX, it is shockingly bad compared to NYC, Chicago, Boston or BART for public transportation. In real cities, subways run 24/7, which means as far as I am concerned only NYC, Chicago and Mexico City count as real cities in North America. (Sorry Toronto). A real city is a place where the most expensive residential real estate is in or right next to the heart of its business and commercial vitality. In TX, this is true only of Austin. If you want an urban as opposed to a suburban life in Texas, downtown Austin and downtown San Antonio have way more to offer than anywhere in Houston or DFW. Heck, you can live more like a city person in the East End of Galveston than you can anywhere in Houston or DFW. You can live a great suburban life in the two biggest MSAs in Texas, but let's stop pretending they are cities in any historically meaningful definition of the term. Ditto for Phoenix, Atlanta and Denver, and most of L.A., though L.A. has some wonderful urban pockets!

Quoted for truth!

[dv1033]

Originally Posted by atxcio

The satellite image really doesn't tell much of the story. There are 3 levels of underground parking, as well as a nearby parking garage, all much larger than the small surface level lot. It's also got several bus stops around it, sidewalks everywhere, and somewhere in the range of 2000 condo units within 3 blocks. And this huge grocery store is in a 6 story building.

Show me the DFW or Houston equivalent, please.

Please refer to my previous post above. There is no equivalent, except maybe Victory Park/Uptown in Dallas. Austin definitely has some good things going for it, but having high rise condos doesn't necessarily make things more urban. I actually believe all these new condo towers are making things faux urban or yuppie-fied urban. Before I left Austin, about a year ago, I lived closer to campus and that area was more urban for me. Whole Foods has so much parking for an "urban" grocery store, not to mention all these new condos are being built on parking lot pedestals. This new urban area on the "western edge of downtown" is still car oriented considering the location and what is being built there. I think in time that will change, but right now it's on the right path. There is a lot of good going on and Austin certainly deserves credit for what it is doing. Let's just not go overboard and start saying Austin is head and shoulders over everyone else. The worst thing about Austin in regards to urban form is how it is almost nonexistent once you leave the immediate downtown/UT area.

[atxcio]

Originally Posted by dv1033

Please refer to my previous post above. There is no equivalent, except maybe Victory Park/Uptown in Dallas. Austin definitely has some good things going for it, but having high rise condos doesn't necessarily make things more urban. I actually believe all these new condo towers are making things faux urban or yuppie-fied urban. Before I left Austin, about a year ago, I lived closer to campus and that area was more urban for me. Whole Foods has so much parking for an "urban" grocery store, not to mention all these new condos are being built on parking lot pedestals. This new urban area on the "western edge of downtown" is still car oriented considering the location and what is being built there. I think in time that will change, but right now it's on the right path. There is a lot of good going on and Austin certainly deserves credit for what it is doing. Let's just not go overboard and start saying Austin is head and shoulders over everyone else. The worst thing about Austin in regards to urban form is how it is almost nonexistent once you leave the immediate downtown/UT area.

You make some good points. And if you lived near campus in 78705, you lived in the densest zip code in the entire state -- so it's no surprise that it would seem more urban. A lot more people living there than downtown.

But this is a Dallas/Houston smackdown thread, so I'll stop derailing the smack.