Are atheists welcome in Texas (Dallas, Fort Worth: appointed, house, to move)

[TexasHorseLady]

I also don't like this notion that us Texas all think and believe the same thing.

Hear, hear! Since Texas was founded by people who were of an independent, not-think-like-everyone-else bent in the first place, this doesn't really sit well with our history (or, for that matter, current experience on my part).

[Gretchen_SDCA]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

Occasionally a post will appear that I just feel like giving a STANDING OVATION, and Rebel Yell. THIS is one of them.

Well done, and said!

Grief - I turn away for just 3 weeks and you start acting up again! LOL I am sure you know that I dissent.

It sort of comes back to our earlier discussion of tolerance again. I can respect that many Texans have these traditional values. I do not respect many of these values myself, but I respect people to have their own beliefs and values - a technical distinction, but I think you know what I mean. As a matter of reality, that is why I would never want to live in Texas, because I would not want to live in such a type of society, or I should say, in a society where the majority holds such views. In an earlier post, you mentioned that you liked CA, but could not live there because of the "extreme culture" - well, for me it's sort of like that in reverse. [Although, of course, I would argue that you could be a religious fanatic or an atheist in CA and most people would leave you alone either way - go figure who's more tolerant]

However, these kinds of social values are things you and I simply have to tolerate about our respective states/regions. Where I have a problem, is when someone's religious/moral belief system is forced down someone else's throat. To be honest, I wasn't quite sure what Jim meant by this statement:

"Texas culture contains a strong sense of justice, right and wrong. This goes back to our frontier days. We are no-nonsense in regard to these sort of things. So behavior outside these moral and cultural bounds are not accepted as normal."

If he meant that that is the way people individually feel about it, i.e. the way they would express themselves, talk about it etc. then Mr. Drysdale would simply have to suck it up. These Texans are entitled to feel that way and are entitled to voice their opinions as such. As mentioned above, because I don't like a predominance of such views, I don't live in TX. I can vote with my feet so to speak. However, if it goes beyond that, i.e. he is denied from practicing his atheism, or denied certain benefits because of it etc. - that would be a huge problem for me. It would of course also likely be a Constitutional violation.

So Mr. Drysdale really has 2 issues before him:

1. Legal consequences of his atheism (which I would assume would hopefully
be none, making this not much of an issue in TX)
2. Social consequences of his atheism (which I think would be enough to make me reconsider the move).

[P.S. I am sure you missed me Even though I have some vacation scheduled in Germany over the summer, I decided it's too long to wait and took a last-minute trip. It was fantastic, but unfortunately took me away from CD for a few weeks!]

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Gretchen_SDCA

Grief - I turn away for just 3 weeks and you start acting up again! LOL I am sure you know that I dissent.

Gretchen, my dear, believe it or not, I was actually thinking about you (remembering all our old discussions and all) when I posted. And you ain't changed a bit and neither have I! LOL

Now then, with the mutual endearments out of the way, you know damn well I am going to reply...

It sort of comes back to our earlier discussion of tolerance again. I can respect that many Texans have these traditional values. I do not respect many of these values myself, but I respect people to have their own beliefs and values - a technical distinction, but I think you know what I mean. As a matter of reality, that is why I would never want to live in Texas,

Ok..stop here. The last thing you wrote. Gretchen...and you know I have come to respect you as a worthy oppenent and being exasperating friends, but the BIGGEST difference I can possibly think of in our disagreements is summed up by your last sentence. To wit "..that is why I would never want to live in Texas"

The WHOLE point is, you DO NOT live in Texas and DON'T want to. You some how, on some level, assume that what you say is a "put down"...when in fact, it is a COMPLIMENT. We don't spend one second worrying about whether or not non-Texans do or don't want to relocate here...

because I would not want to live in such a type of society, or I should say, in a society where the majority holds such views. In an earlier post, you mentioned that you liked CA, but could not live there because of the "extreme culture" - well, for me it's sort of like that in reverse. [Although, of course, I would argue that you could be a religious fanatic or an atheist in CA and most people would leave you alone either way - go figure who's more tolerant]

Then for gosh sakes, stay out of Texas, my friend (and I mean this is a very respectful way).

The DIFFERENCE is...that somehow NEVER seems to cross regional lines in the translation is that I (nor any Texan I know) spend any time on a California (or northern) forum, and lecture them on what it wrong with their culture! I...I just...simply don't understand the (yeah, what I confess to calling "yankee" mindset) Down here, if I can put it crudely... is let US go to hell in our own handbasket, y'all go to hell in Y'ALLS...and we will ALL be in a good humor! LOL

Another associated point, is that you seem to presume that I accept your definitions of "tolerance." The whole point is that I DON'T. I think you are presuming something that isn't. In fact, taking several regressions, even that the word "tolerance" has any value at al? . To my way of thinking, "tolerance" has an historical, dictionary definition. "Acceptance within specified limits." It is not ME that is stretching the meaning of the English language...

However, these kinds of social values are things you and I simply have to tolerate about our respective states/regions. Where I have a problem, is when someone's religious/moral belief system is forced down someone else's throat. To be honest, I wasn't quite sure what Jim meant by this statement:

No, I don't HAVE to accept anything of the sort. Neither to tolerate nor accept the perversion of the natural meaning of words (as DeToqueville put it) nor what passes in its name as normal. Nope, sorry...ain't gonna do it. If THAT makes us "unenlightened"... then god bless the cotton crop.

I will not presume to speak for jim, but my position is very much what he says: Texas is a Southern state, a western state, and when one moves HERE then NOBODY is forcing a ding darn dadburn thing down ANYBODY's throat. In essence, as we Texans/Southerners see it, "you" (in a third person sense) are coming into our HOME!

The worst folly in the world, and greatest cultural misunderstanding of all, is to, in this metaphorical HOME, to start telling US how the wallpaper sucks. It is not US who forces anything on anybody. We are what we are. Don't like it? Stay away....AND by the way, clean yer own houses before you come down here and lecture US on how to sweep the rug....

However, if it goes beyond that, i.e. he is denied from practicing his atheism, or denied certain benefits because of it etc. - that would be a huge problem for me. It would of course also likely be a Constitutional violation.

So Mr. Drysdale really has 2 issues before him:

1. Legal consequences of his atheism (which I would assume would hopefully
be none, making this not much of an issue in TX)
2. Social consequences of his atheism (which I think would be enough to make me reconsider the move).

Gretchen, c'mon. DENIED "practicing" atheism? Good Lord, hon (combination of pun and intentional enderment here! LOL)...where the heck does that come in? Tell me where in the hell (pun UN-intentionally intended) is the "right" to be an athiest denied in Texas..."

Social consequences? Well, that is the price one pays for having beliefs. If I moved to San Francisco, then I would have to pay the price of, probably, some sort of "social ostrasicm" for being a Southern white conservative male. Hey, it comes with the territory. *shrug* Only thing is, I am NOT going to move to SF because I know all that ahead of time and do no expect the natives there to change for me!

Ok..gotta get outta here for a while!

[P.S. I am sure you missed me Even though I have some vacation scheduled in Germany over the summer, I decided it's too long to wait and took a last-minute trip. It was fantastic, but unfortunately took me away from CD for a few weeks!]

Of course I have missed you! One of these days we will have to argue and BS over a BIG mug of German beer!

[Gretchen_SDCA]

Hi:

First, I never claimed that you are not allowed to practice atheism in TX. In fact, if you note my post, it states clearly that I do not think that there would be any legal consequences - the bigger issue for the person would be the 2nd issue - the social consequences.

Second, yes, our definitions of tolerance are very different. In Europe/California, we are quite happy to have an atheist living next door, as long as he doesn't ostracize Christians. We are also quite happy to have a fundamentalist living next door, as long as he doesn't ostracize non-fundamentalists. We generally don't care if you're gay, straight, fundamentalist, agnostic whatever, as long as you live your life and do not do harm to others. This empirical, informal definition of tolerance is not what the majority of Texans believe in (at least according to you). As such, a line is drawn in the sand on this issue I suppose.

I present my arguments on your forum, because I argue against intolerance whenever I see it. During the Civil Rights Movement era, many activists from up north came to protest in the South in many ways (despite the fact that there was a LOT of racism in their own backyards as well). While I by no means liken my forum posts to that of the honorable people who helped lead the movement, it is the best analogy I could think of in a hurry. It is your prerogative whether or not you wish to argue on the CA forums.

And lastly, my comments about not wanting to live in TX were SERIOUSLY written not to offend you, but instead ironically to agree with one of your viewpoints - if you don't like the "social consequences," don't move there. Which is why I would not. And why Mr. Drysdale should think twice. However, that would not stop me arguing for something I think is right. Perhaps the next generation or two of Texans would slowly begin to change - who knows.

I write all this with respect and affection too.

[Hasdrubal]

what about if you're a Muslim?

[GoingHome2TX]

Originally Posted by Mr. Drysdale

Looking at Texas for retirement. I am a closet atheist. Not interested in
joining a church, or praising Jesus if I find a dollar bill on the sidewalk.

Do most Texan's make it a point to ask you were you go to church?
Can a non-believer live a happy life in Texas? Do many activities
relvolve around church membership?

Mr. Drysdale

I am not going to even comment on some of the other posts in this thread, that's something that is between the posters involved, and I'm staying out of it.

What I will comment on is that I am a native son of the great state of Texas. I also am an atheist. While I have been stuck (against my will) outside of Texas borders for 15 years, I do have family deep in south Texas and make a point to visit at least once or twice a year. In less than a month, I will finally be able return home.

Christianity is a big thing in Texas, make no mistake about it. The part of Texas I am from has the big three; Catholics, Southern Baptists, and Methodists. Most people do belong to one of these denominations. In fact, my father is a Southern Baptist Minister. Even then, I know plenty of atheists and agnostics living in Texas.

If you just keep your views to yourself and don't say a word unless asked, then there will be no problem at all. If you go out and try to convert every Christian to your way of thinking, then you can expect some level of resistance to be met, along with the possibility of social repercussions.

Answering that you don't belong to a church when asked what church you attend isn't going to offend too many people, though. If they persist and ask why you don't go to church and you just respond with its not what you believe in, they typically will leave you alone.

The beauty of Texas that I have found from growing up in south Texas is that even though there are considerable problems beyond the scope of this topic, tolerance for others and opinions is pretty high. It is an easy going and laid back type of world for the most part. As long as you aren't trying to stir people up, they will accept you for who you are and leave you be. I know that personally, as a non-believer, I am only happy when I am in Texas.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Gretchen_SDCA

Hi:

First, I never claimed that you are not allowed to practice atheism in TX. In fact, if you note my post, it states clearly that I do not think that there would be any legal consequences - the bigger issue for the person would be the 2nd issue - the social consequences.

As a LOT of times happens with me, I sneak another peek before I call in something to eat (I got orders from the g/f to holler at Cracker Barrell! LOL) so just have to reply one more time for the time being!...

*AHEM* Well, no, strictly speaking you didn't (say there would be any "legal consequences")...BUT..the whole concept is suggestive of something negative and misleading by intention. Why in the world would you even bring it up at all...?

Social consequences? Yeah, that is so. ANY value system or way of living has "consequences." ...assumuing one has the guts to stick up for what they believe in and want to live by. I am a white Texas, Southern, straight male conservative who proudly dispays the Confederate Flag. Ok...I proudly take the "consequences" if that be the monkey on my back. I DONT expect anybody to adapt to me.

Second, yes, our definitions of tolerance are very different. In Europe/California, we are quite happy to have an atheist living next door, as long as he doesn't ostracize Christians. We are also quite happy to have a fundamentalist living next door, as long as he doesn't ostracize non-fundamentalists. We generally don't care if you're gay, straight, fundamentalist, agnostic whatever, as long as you live your life and do not do harm to others.

Gretchen, you -- intentionally or not -- you just described Texas and Texans, albeit if some of the labels might be reversed/changed. The difference is we (if by "we" one means conservative Texans) don't pat ourselves on the back nor congratulate ourselves as to how much we accept the lastest trendy chic thing as normal.

WE don't care if you are gay, atheist, or purple polka-dotted either. BUT...don't rub it in our faces. Simple as that. And you know what? We all tend to get along just fine. Even "tolerate" in a way that makes us the most neighborly people in the world...

This empirical, informal definition of tolerance is not what the majority of Texans believe in (at least according to you). As such, a line is drawn in the sand on this issue I suppose.

As a Texan, believe me, I have strong feelings on what "a line in the sand" means! LOL

But seriously, not withstanding that "empirical" and "informal" are, IMHO are, mutually exclusive, how can you say something as this? You seem to pride yourself on the "virtue" of "tolerance"...yet you are so intolerant as to define it so narrowly that it is intolerant by your own!

Whatever...thank god MY definition of tolerance doesn't try and make a ludicrous step into the Twilight Zone of the politically correct era. But rather, something like, "Son, pick up after y'self, dammit..."

I present my arguments on your forum, because I argue against intolerance whenever I see it. During the Civil Rights Movement era, many activists from up north came to protest in the South in many ways (despite the fact that there was a LOT of racism in their own backyards as well). While I by no means liken my forum posts to that of the honorable people who helped lead the movement, it is the best analogy I could think of in a hurry.

Well, we Texans/Southerners are ever more appreciative of your assistance.

Not trying to be a smartass, Gretchen, my friend, I can think of NO subject more open to cannon fire than what you just brought up. While I truly DO appreciate your points about the whole sorry episode, I want to state for the record that few things in history have ever been so absolutely self-righteous and hypocritical and flat out almost satiristic as northern students with a "savior complex" and politicians of the same sort righteously passing civil rights laws directed at the South...and ignoring those in their own backyard...

And too, what you say about "arguing against intolerance whenever you see it"? I do the same thing (see above).

It is your prerogative whether or not you wish to argue on the CA forums.

I DON't want to. Which is a major sub-point. What happens in California is NONE of my damn business.

And lastly, my comments about not wanting to live in TX were SERIOUSLY written not to offend you, but instead ironically to agree with one of your viewpoints - if you don't like the "social consequences," don't move there. Which is why I would not. And why Mr. Drysdale should think twice. However, that would not stop me arguing for something I think is right. Perhaps the next generation or two of Texans would slowly begin to change - who knows.

And it DOESN'T offend me. We Texans are not easily offended! And we instinctively KNOW what is "right." We don't need it verified by the New York Times or People magazine or "reality TV." We already knew 150 years ago, dammit...and more recently, learned it from our momma and daddy and granmaws and granpaws...

Next generation of Texans to change? *throws up hands in despair and sighs* Change to WHAAAAAAT? NOOO thanks Miss Gretchen....I'll make a deal with you: You work on your part of the country...I'll tend to mine!

I write all this with respect and affection too.

*smiles* I know that...ditto in turn...which is one reason that I can't wait for you to buy me a beer when we argue this stuff...!

Ok..NOW, I really do gotta get outta here. Friends coming over and all...ever'body have a good evening!

[Gretchen_SDCA]

Originally Posted by GoingHome2TX

I am not going to even comment on some of the other posts in this thread, that's something that is between the posters involved, and I'm staying out of it.

What I will comment on is that I am a native son of the great state of Texas. I also am an atheist. While I have been stuck (against my will) outside of Texas borders for 15 years, I do have family deep in south Texas and make a point to visit at least once or twice a year. In less than a month, I will finally be able return home.

Christianity is a big thing in Texas, make no mistake about it. The part of Texas I am from has the big three; Catholics, Southern Baptists, and Methodists. Most people do belong to one of these denominations. In fact, my father is a Southern Baptist Minister. Even then, I know plenty of atheists and agnostics living in Texas.

If you just keep your views to yourself and don't say a word unless asked, then there will be no problem at all. If you go out and try to convert every Christian to your way of thinking, then you can expect some level of resistance to be met, along with the possibility of social repercussions.

Answering that you don't belong to a church when asked what church you attend isn't going to offend too many people, though. If they persist and ask why you don't go to church and you just respond with its not what you believe in, they typically will leave you alone.

The beauty of Texas that I have found from growing up in south Texas is that even though there are considerable problems beyond the scope of this topic, tolerance for others and opinions is pretty high. It is an easy going and laid back type of world for the most part. As long as you aren't trying to stir people up, they will accept you for who you are and leave you be. I know that personally, as a non-believer, I am only happy when I am in Texas.

Thanks for a great post. As long as people act the way you describe, I have no problem. TexReb and others probably think that I tend to go out and convert others to agnosticism/atheism and stir this up. In real life, I do no such thing. Because this is a forum for debate, that is what occurs here. In real life, however, I don't even know the religion of most of my friends. Most of them don't even know about my "unbelief." It simply is something that is private and a non-issue.

It is only when people hassle me about my beliefs, patronize, and consistently try to make me read their books, pamphlets, etc. that I get annoyed and will challenge their beliefs. In such a case, I believe a debate is "fair game."

[TexasHorseLady]

In real life, however, I don't even know the religion of most of my friends. Most of them don't even know about my "unbelief." It simply is something that is private and a non-issue.

This is pretty much life as I know it in Texas and have for the past almost 60 years.

For the record, TexReb does not speak for "most" Texans. In fact, I doubt there's anyone who speaks for "most" Texans - we're just not that homogenous.

[bostoner]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

In real life, however, I don't even know the religion of most of my friends. Most of them don't even know about my "unbelief." It simply is something that is private and a non-issue.

This is pretty much life as I know it in Texas and have for the past almost 60 years.

For the record, TexReb does not speak for "most" Texans. In fact, I doubt there's anyone who speaks for "most" Texans - we're just not that homogenous.

I couldn't agree more.