Texan Mentality? (Houston, Dallas, Mesquite: tax, cost, suburb)

[Canine*Castle]

Originally Posted by momof2dfw

Yes, I guess I should not have expected someone not in tune w/ the ROOTS of a Native Texan to understand the independence I was talking about.

Then you should mention it to lonestar (no offense to you, dear lady), but just because my roots aren't in Texas doesn't mean I'm the only one who didn't get the history stuff. Please! See how differently you treat me in words on this forum as compared with THL and others. So your roots are in Texas? There are really more important things in life than where you were planted.

You're really over the top with this native Texan stuff. I know you're not alone, but oh my gosh, I have native Texan friends who would cringe at all of this and chuckle as well.

[Canine*Castle]

Originally Posted by momof2dfw

Again, I'm guessing this is something that will go right over your head as a lot of people that are not from this area don't understand that history nor have they been taught it.

Au contraire, dear young lady. I learned much about Texas History when I moved to Texas. I cracked the books along with my children and then when working for a school district, I learned even more. I hope you realize not only Texas during Civil War years had hard times. Your sarcasm is why I say things like "you're hostile", but, of course, you would never treat a rooted person that way. What double standards you portray.

By the way, I don't claim to know the history as you do since I wasn't raised here and it wasn't ingrained into my brain. I prefer grammar and English over history anyway, so it's a good thing for me.

[TexasHorseLady]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

Too, why does your position always have to be predicated on that those who disagree with you are by extension dismissing/disparaging the influence of other cultures? Why?

The main influence on Texas is -- historically and culturally --that of the historical South. That there were/are others is simply to note and be proud of part of Texas' unique and colorful history. Same as the French Cajun is in Louisiana. The Colonial in South Carolina. The proud and stubborn independence of the "Moutain South" of Tennessee. BUT..the migrating Southern influence is by far the dominant one in Texas. And is reflected in everything from the dialect to eating the black-eyed peas on New Years Day. Texas evolved into its own self (and I am proud of that) over time...but there are very few influences on Texas history/culture that not "Southern" in origin and roots.

TexasReb, the first sentence in your second paragraph is something that I take great issue with - and that is as someone who grew up in East Texas, whose ancestors for the most part came THROUGH the South to Texas (others came down from Illinois to Texas, but they all started out here in the same place, where the boats landed, NYC - should we all consider ourselves to be Yankees because that's where our ancestors landed and stayed for a while?), who by all your stats should firmly believe herself to be a Southern belle.

The fact is, the Mexican influence was here first and is a VERY strong influence, the German influence came in about the middle of the 1800's, all of these were here as early as or earlier than the Southern influence (and, as I've said, of that Southern influence, many of them were "on their way to Texas" even when they were living and marrying and bearing children all across the South). And we're not even mentioning the Native American influence or the French influence or any of the rest of it.

For you to insist that the influence of the South is the primary influence in the face of all this IS disparaging all of the other influences that have equal impact on the Texan culture. Thus, my reaction to it. I find it amazing that you can't see this.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

TexasReb, the first sentence in your second paragraph is something that I take great issue with - and that is as someone who grew up in East Texas, whose ancestors for the most part came THROUGH the South to Texas (others came down from Illinois to Texas, but they all started out here in the same place, where the boats landed, NYC - should we all consider ourselves to be Yankees because that's where our ancestors landed and stayed for a while?), who by all your stats should firmly believe herself to be a Southern belle.

Lets start with this one, THL. You always bring up this "I grew up in East Texas" thing, as if this alone bestows upon you the credentials to be the grand judge of Texas regional affiliation. But, ok...so you did grow up in East Texas. BUT.. so did hundreds of thousands of others who don't share your outlook. For many East Texans, that special part of Texas is Old South and proudly so. Just because you made a decision, at some point in your life -- and I am sure you had good reasons -- to leave behind your Southern heritage, doesn't translate into that others must be so inclined..

You keep saying this "came thru the South" thing. Can you explain? It doesn't...historically speaking -- make the slightest bit of sense. Of all the points you have ever made attempting to seperate Texas from the South...this is the most illogical. IF those ever migrating folks from the southeast wanted to "leave the South"...then wouldn't it have made sense that in SOME of their memoirs they would have phrased it as such? That in at least ONE diary or whatever, the sentence "We left the South to go to Texas..." would appear?? Or...that Texas would not have joined the Confederacy (as a charter member, in fact), or that ANY historical account of the day would have referred to "Texas" and "South" as if they were not intrinsically connected? This is crazy...

The fact is, the Mexican influence was here first and is a VERY strong influence, the German influence came in about the middle of the 1800's, all of these were here as early as or earlier than the Southern influence (and, as I've said, of that Southern influence, many of them were "on their way to Texas" even when they were living and marrying and bearing children all across the South). And we're not even mentioning the Native American influence or the French influence or any of the rest of it.

Ok...ok...and the Spanish was before the Mexican and the French before that. What are you saying? If you want to believe that Texas is some sort of melting pot with no one culture emerging dominant, then go ahead. But back it up with something other than it is so because I say it is so.

The Native American influence? Tell me one Indian reservation in Texas, will you?

For you to insist that the influence of the South is the primary influence in the face of all this IS disparaging all of the other influences that have equal impact on the Texan culture. Thus, my reaction to it. I find it amazing that you can't see this.

LOL That is what I thought. Translation is: For me (or any one else) to take a position opposing your own is tantamount to "disparaging" another culture? Is that it? Never mind you offer nothing to prove otherwise? Oh well... I am sorry your own case has to made by misunderstanding mine...

[TexasHorseLady]

TexasReb, I realized something last night in thinking this over. Whenever this subject comes up in any thread, I cringe and think that maybe I should leave the thread, because you WILL show up sooner or later with your insistence that Texas IS the South, and we're just going to start bickering about it. Then I thought about it some more, and realized that part of what bugs me is you throwing around the same kinds of "studies" that I saw so many people relying on in academia (yeah, spent a fair amount of time there, too) to support their pet beliefs, studies that, when you actually looked at them, were clearly designed to do so. Little things like which population was chosen to sample, for example, can make a BIG difference. If those surveys were taken in West Texas exclusively, for example, or South Texas, or the Panhandle, the results might be very different. The wording of the question(s) can be crucial, as well. Unless one really looks at those kinds of things, it's hard to tell if the survey was unbiased - and in the soft sciences, I can say that I've almost never seen a survey that, looked at from someone from "the outside", didn't turn out to be biased. Sad, but there it is.

The other thing that aggravates me is that I've spent a fair amount of my life going and looking up the information that disproves someone's pet theory that they could very easily find for themselves if they were at all inclined to do so. I have enough on my plate to look up things that contradict what I would prefer to believe (which, by the way, I do, just because I've seen the opposite behavior so very often); far from your claim, I have a compulsion to more closely examine the things I would prefer to believe than those that I don't, because I see that aspect of human nature too clearly and am wary of it in myself. Would be comforting if I didn't, frankly; it's not something that I particularly like about myself or that makes my life easier, but there you are, my eyes are brown, too.

However, I've just about decided that the moment that the entire concept "Texas is Southern - or not" comes up in any thread here, no matter how interesting the thread, the best thing for me to do is to simply not enter that thread again, just to avoid the inevitable aggravation, for myself and for others who must slog through our "discussion".

The East Texas thing is because East Texas is the part of Texas that is most likely to consider itself with ANY justification to be the South.

As for your last sentence, like I said, it flat amazes me that you are not able to see that your stand completely ignores or downplays the influence of so many other cultures.

I'm done. We agree on many things, and I don't like the "ick" feeling I get when I see that this "discussion" is about to happen for yet the eighty-leventh time. So I'm done.

[bostoner]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

I'm done. We agree on many things, and I don't like the "ick" feeling I get when I see that this "discussion" is about to happen for yet the eighty-leventh time. So I'm done.

Yes, exactly. Y'all have discussed this to death. Please, let's not hijack this thread. There are already a million threads on this subject. There's no right or wrong answer anyway. It's all opinion. I think TexasReb underestimates how prevalent the Mexican influence is in the southern part of the state because he lives so far north, and how others culturally impacted certain areas, like the Germans and Czechs in Houston-San Antonio-Austin, for example. Anyway, can we get back to the Texan mentality stuff? It was interesting reading.

[TexasReb]

Good morning, THL...and let me just say a couple of things too. Not to fight with you (for one thing is it Christmas Eve! , because I too have thought about it since posting, and think perhaps I was a bit brusque in my wording. I stand by the basic points, but don't like to come across in a way that can be taken as rude or dismissive of the opinions of others. Anyway...

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

TexasReb, I realized something last night in thinking this over. Whenever this subject comes up in any thread, I cringe and think that maybe I should leave the thread, because you WILL show up sooner or later with your insistence that Texas IS the South, and we're just going to start bickering about it.

Well, you gotta admit you too tend to leap on these threads! LOL But yes, believe it or not, I too am tired of this topic. Everytime I see a thread or post which brings it up, I groan inwardly and think...oh gawd, here we go again. Naturally, yeah, it is my nature to address and reply to them...but at the same time I really wish it just be something we all mutually agree to disagree on, and leave it at that.

Then I thought about it some more, and realized that part of what bugs me is you throwing around the same kinds of "studies" that I saw so many people relying on in academia (yeah, spent a fair amount of time there, too) to support their pet beliefs, studies that, when you actually looked at them, were clearly designed to do so. Little things like which population was chosen to sample, for example, can make a BIG difference. If those surveys were taken in West Texas exclusively, for example, or South Texas, or the Panhandle, the results might be very different. The wording of the question(s) can be crucial, as well. Unless one really looks at those kinds of things, it's hard to tell if the survey was unbiased - and in the soft sciences, I can say that I've almost never seen a survey that, looked at from someone from "the outside", didn't turn out to be biased. Sad, but there it is.

The studies I mentioned were not designed to get a particular result. Rather, they were designed to attempt to answer -- in at least the area of regional self-identification -- "where is the South"? And they were conducted using a broad base, not only all across Texas, but the nation. I won't bother to post the data nor methodology nor the articles which came out when the study was released, but you can easily research them for yourself. Sure, I see what you are saying in that there are always going to be flaws in any poll. BUT...what strikes me is the constistency and that seperate unrelated polls/studies still yield the same general findings.

The other thing that aggravates me is that I've spent a fair amount of my life going and looking up the information that disproves someone's pet theory that they could very easily find for themselves if they were at all inclined to do so. I have enough on my plate to look up things that contradict what I would prefer to believe (which, by the way, I do, just because I've seen the opposite behavior so very often); far from your claim, I have a compulsion to more closely examine the things I would prefer to believe than those that I don't, because I see that aspect of human nature too clearly and am wary of it in myself. Would be comforting if I didn't, frankly; it's not something that I particularly like about myself or that makes my life easier, but there you are, my eyes are brown, too.

Once again, I see your general point. You are right, it is human nature to seize upon information/stats which back up what we want to believe. In this particular realm though, I wasn't born with a pre-conceived notion that Texas is Southern. Believe it or not, the "Civil War" was not a big topic, nor did I grow up hearing nostalgic tales from my great-grandparents about the Old South. However, I became facinated with history -- particularly the War -- and regional and cultural studies early on (everyone is a screwball in their own way, and most of us can't explain exactly what draws us to a particular area of interest).

Anyway, I came to my conclusions about Texas being essentially Southern after many years. Oh sure, I always knew which side Texas took during the War and that most divisions of the United States usually placed us in the South. At the same time though, those formative years were an era when many Texas politicians (LBJ being a great example) and Texas business type concerns tried to distance the state from its Southern origins and roots. LBJ wrote at length on this in his memoirs and in a nutshell, this was a time when the South had a particularly negative image in the minds of many Americans (due to Civil Rights struggles) many of the powers in Texas -- trying to attract northern industry -- thought it "bad for business" and politics (LBJ again) to identify too closely with the Deep South. It was expedient to slip into a more neutral "Southwestern" or "Western" identity.

In fact, on a tangent (which you might find amusing), there was an article in Texas Monthly shortly after Jimmy Carter was elected president titled "Fitting Into the South." I got a chuckle out of the blurb (recalled from memory) "Through the years, Texas has been the perfect fair-weather friend of the South. We have the credentials to be Southern when we want to be, but during trying times it was easier to slip neatly aside into our Southwestern identity..."

Anyway, somewhere along the line you and I just took a different path. You said you grew up wanting to believe Texas was the Old South, but that certain things lead to you to honestly conclude othewise. I respect that. In my case -- the Confederacy not withstanding -- I grew up with that Texas was the Southwest. Which yeah, it is within a certain realm, but when really studying and absorbing and, later, researching on my own, I arrived at the conclusion that, in essence, Texas is essentially a Southern state. Unique to be sure, but basically a part of the American South relative to other regions of the country.

However, I've just about decided that the moment that the entire concept "Texas is Southern - or not" comes up in any thread here, no matter how interesting the thread, the best thing for me to do is to simply not enter that thread again, just to avoid the inevitable aggravation, for myself and for others who must slog through our "discussion".

And again, THL, I understand and basically feel the same way. I know myself well enough to know should it come up, I will participate. But at the same time, I will go out of my way to try and avoid such if possible. I am certainly not going to start any threads on the topic! LOL

The East Texas thing is because East Texas is the part of Texas that is most likely to consider itself with ANY justification to be the South.

Well, you know we disagree on that "any justification" part, but out of curiosity (I don't know if I ever asked you) where did you grow up in East Texas?

As for your last sentence, like I said, it flat amazes me that you are not able to see that your stand completely ignores or downplays the influence of so many other cultures.

OK. I hope to end this discussion of ours on an upbeat and friendly note, but I have to reply to this one. You mentioned certain things about my position that aggravates and irks you. In my case, I get the same when you assign to me a position I never took, or try and make it appear that by noting certain historical facts (as I see them) it is tantamount to disparaging and/or downplaying the role of other cultures.

In fact, one of those observations I am fond of posting concerning Texas speech is one which I always felt was a great metaphor for the state itself. That is, that the "Texas accent" (broadly defined) is a "Southern accent with a twist." That "twist" being the confluence of other cultures (German and hispanic in particular). However, to say these cultures had equal influence is shaping Texas from the time of its early settlement and statehood just has no empirical support. Were they important? For sure. Can one clearly see the influence? Again, yes. I am proud of that. But the dominating history and culture of Texas was mostly shaped by settlers (anglo and black) from the southeastern states. This would only seem to stand to reason, as they were easily the largest bunch who came to the state.

From Raymond Gastils, "Cultural Regions of the United States": Unlike the Interior Southwest, neither aboriginal Indian nor Spanish-American culture played a central role in the definition of the area. The people of Texas are mostly from the Lower, Upper, and Mountain South and these Southerners easily outnumbered the Spanish speaking and Indian people even before the state joined the Union. Therefore, when we refer to a large Spanish-speaking population in Texas, we are primarily speaking of a relatively recent immigrant population, quite different from the core areas of the Interior Southwest."

And from "The SouthWest Defined" (VOLUME 34, NUMBER 3, AUTUMN 1992, Land, Sky, and People: The Southwest Defined. UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA PRESS. THE SOUTHWEST CENTER TUCSON. http://digital.library.arizona.edu/jsw/3403/index.html )

Current demographic statistics do not provoke any great revision in determining that area which we can call the "Hispanic Southwest." Place names in southern Texas and California suggest a rich and enduring Hispanic heritage in those two states. But following the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, hordes of white Americans rushed into these Hispanic areas of Texas, and, even though white Americans totally dominated these parts of Texas, they continued to use many existing Spanish place names. Most of California's Spanish place names were designated by Anglo real estate developers in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries in an attempt to capitalize commercially on the state's romance that visitors and newcomers to the region found so "quaint" and attractive. A meaningful cultural presence of Hispanic traditions cannot be derived merely from Spanish place names. And other qualifications- primarily physiographic, climatic, and prehistoric-preclude Texas and California from being placed within "the Southwest."

I don't see either of these observations/conclusions as being disparaging, but simply noting an historical demographic fact. There was at least a noteable settlement of Texans into parts of New Mexico, particularly in the eastern slice known as "Little Texas" (reflected today by the number of Southern Baptist Church members), however, the dominating influence on that state is Indian and Mexican culture. I don't see that fact as being critical of Texans...

I'm done. We agree on many things, and I don't like the "ick" feeling I get when I see that this "discussion" is about to happen for yet the eighty-leventh time. So I'm done.

Ok...I ran on far longer than I intended to (typical of me, I suppose! LOL). So I am done too. And to end (I hope) on a good note? You are right, we DO agree on many things. We can just agree to disagree on this one. As Rhett Butler said to Scarlett, "Shall we let the bugles sing truce"?

Merry TEXAS Christmas to you and yours, THL!

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by houstoner

Yes, exactly. Y'all have discussed this to death. Please, let's not hijack this thread. There are already a million threads on this subject. There's no right or wrong answer anyway. It's all opinion. I think TexasReb underestimates how prevalent the Mexican influence is in the southern part of the state because he lives so far north, and how others culturally impacted certain areas, like the Germans and Czechs in Houston-San Antonio-Austin, for example. Anyway, can we get back to the Texan mentality stuff? It was interesting reading.

You are right, Houstoner, it is all opinion. And I hope the bolded part of your statement was answered in my rather long-winded reply to THL. Specifically, when I speak of the major impacts on Texas, I am talking about the state in broad, overall terms. That there is not, in certain areas, a very strong influence (if not dominating) of cultures other than Southern is absolutely right. Hispanic in South and far West Texas, and German in parts of the Hill Country, for example. I would never argue otherwise.

And I will go along with getting back to the Texas mentality basis for this thread (and BTW -- Tex-Mex cruisine, next to "old fashioned country cookin') is my favorite! It is a part of unique Texas culture.

[case44]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

And I will go along with getting back to the Texas mentality basis for this thread (and BTW -- Tex-Mex cruisine, next to "old fashioned country cookin') is my favorite! It is a part of unique Texas culture.

We should be making T-shirts saying that we Texans batter-dip and deep-fry everything.


Even your tires!

[Tilar]

Originally Posted by Topaz

My California friends just bought a $3500 espresso maker and had it plumbed into their kitchen. Yes, I was envious!

Wow, that $3500 could have gone to something more worthwhile, Like say the down payment on my new used skid loader.