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View Poll Results: Why do some Southerners erroneously claim TX is part of the South?
Because they know their region lacks prestige and want to include TX to bring it up 6 15.79%
Jealousy of Texas' greater prestige makes Southerners vindictive and want to drag down TX with them 4 10.53%
Ignorance 11 28.95%
All of the above 17 44.74%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 12-07-2008, 08:57 AM
 
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I apologize in advance for the lengthy post! LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
A Southerner is, and a Southerner know he is...

And, as you know, TexReb, I'm a Texan through and through, from East Texas, even, and I don't consider myself to be a Southerner, I consider myself to be a Texan.
And that is fine. I consider myself to be a Texan too. And a Southerner as well. I respect your perspective on the matter, and I hope you reciprocate.

Quote:
The poll is flawed in the choices given, as your statement that most Texans consider themselves to be Southerners is flawed. Both are based on your own particular biases.
I have posted the data before. It is not just my opinion, but that taken from both the 7 year Southern Focus Poll and from an article in Annals of the American Geographer (Changing Usage of Four American Regional Labels by James R. Shortridge). Both show that the majority of Texans, when asked, considered themselves to live in the South and be Southererners. To wit:

Southern Focus Poll (with comments by Dr. John Shelton Reed who conducted the poll via the UNC at Chapel Hill in the Southern Studies department), as well as an article on the study which appeared in many newspapers when it was first released:

WHERE IS THE SOUTH?

The South has been defined by a great many characteristics, but one of the most interesting definitions is where people believe that they are in the South. A related definition is where the residents consider themselves to be southerners, although this is obviously affected by the presence of non-southern migrants.

Until recently we did not have the data to answer the question of where either of those conditions is met. Since 1992, however, 14 twice-yearly Southern Focus Polls conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have asked respondents from the 11 former Confederate states, Kentucky, and Oklahoma "Just for the record, would you say that your community is in the South, or not?" Starting with the third of the series, the same question was asked of smaller samples of respondents from West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, the District of Columbia, and Missouri (all except Missouri included in the Bureau of the Census's "South"). Respondents from the 13 southern states were also asked "Do you consider yourself a Southerner, or not?," while starting with the second survey those from other states were asked "Do you consider yourself or anyone in your family a Southerner?," and if so, whether they considered themselves to be Southerners.

It is clear from these data that if the point is to isolate southerners for study or to compare them to other Americans the definition of the South employed by the Southern Focus Poll (and, incidentally, by the Gallup Organization) makes sense, while the Bureau of the Census definiton does not. We already knew that, of course, but it's good to be able to document it.

--John Shelton Reed


Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)

Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)

West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)

Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)

Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)

West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) New Mexico 13 (68) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16) Utah 11 (70) Indiana 10 (208) Illinois 9 (362) Ohio 8 (396) Arizona 7 (117) Michigan 6 (336)

CHAPEL HILL – Ask even educated Americans what states form "the South," and you’re likely to get 100 different answers. Almost everyone will agree on Deep South states -- except maybe Florida -- but which border states belong and which don’t can be endlessly debated.

Now, the Southern Focus Poll, conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, provides strong support for including such states as Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia don’t belong anymore, if they ever did.

Fourteen polls, surveying a total of more than 17,000 people between 1992 and 1999 show, for example, that only 7 percent of D.C. residents responding say that they live in the South.

Only 14 percent of Delaware residents think they live in the region, followed by Missourians with 23 percent, Marylanders with 40 percent and West Virginians with 45 percent.

"We found 84 percent of Texans, 82 percent of Virginians, 79 percent of Kentuckians and 69 percent of Oklahomans say they live in the South," says Dr. John Shelton Reed, director of the institute. "Our findings correspond to the traditional 13-state South as defined by the Gallup organization and others, but is different from the Census Bureau’s South, which doesn’t make sense."

The U.S. Census Bureau includes Delaware, D.C., Maryland and West Virginia in its definition.

"Clearly some parts of Texas aren’t Southern – whatever you mean by that -- and some parts of Maryland are," Reed said. "But sometimes you need to say what ‘the Southern states’ are, and this kind of information can help you decide. Our next step is to look inside individual states like Texas, break the data down by county, and say, for example, where between Beaumont and El Paso people stop telling you that you’re in the South."

A report on the findings, produced by UNC-CH’s Institute for Research in Social Science, will appear in the June issue of the journal "Southern Cultures." Reed, who directs the institute, says the results should interest many people including survey, marketing and census researchers.

"Personally, I think they ought to be interesting too to ordinary folk who are curious about where people stop telling you you’re in the South as you’re travelling west or north," he said. "Where that is has been kind of hard to say sometimes."

Perhaps surprisingly, 11 percent of people in Utah, 10 percent in Indiana and slighter fewer people in Illinois, Ohio, Arizona and Michigan claim to be Southerners.

"That’s because in the early part of this century millions of people left the South, and their migration was one of the great migrations not just in American history, but in world history," Reed said. "Their children may not think of themselves as Southern, but they still do."

The UNC-CH sociologist said he was surprised that 51 percent of Floridians describe themselves as Southerners even though 90 percent know their community is in the South.

"Florida is the only state in lower 48 where most people living there weren’t born there," he said. "In fact, most of them weren’t born in the South, much less in Florida."

Because of the South’s growing economy, only between 90 and 80 percent of residents of Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, Georgia and the Carolinas said they are Southerners, the surveys showed.

"If you want to define the South as where people say it is, now we have a better sense of it," Reed said. "For the most part, it confirms what I already suspected, which is why I’m glad to see it. This work shows something we wanted to show, but haven’t been able to before."



*******

From the Annals of the Association of American Geographers, In Vol. 7, Number 3 of this journal (September 1987), in the article Changing Usage of Four American Regional Labels, Professor James R. Shortridge (Department of Geography, University of Kansas) seeks, through a statistically random analysis of identification cards sent out with a product, to identify contemporary trends of regional self-identification in terms of the four labels “East”, “West”, “South”, and “Midwest.” Here is a ranked list in terms of percentage of people who chose “South” as their primary regional identification.

More than 75%: 1. Louisiana – 194/199 – 97.49% 2. Mississippi – 72/75 – 96% 3. Alabama – 122/130 – 93.85% 4. Florida – 244/277 – 88.09% 5. Georgia – 147/168 – 87.5% 6. Tennessee – 156/190 – 82.11%

More than 50%: 1. Arkansas – 56/77 – 72.73% 2. South Carolina – 66/91 – 72.53% 3. Texas – 526/739 – 71.18% 4. North Carolina – 87/145 – 60%

Quote:
Texas is not part of the South just because it happens to be contiguous to Louisiana, or because some of the people that went into making it up happened to come from, or through, the South. (And I include most, but not all, of my own ancestors there), or because some of us (but not most by far) want to consider it part of the South. I actually have come to the conclusion that Texas, in and of itself, is a region (given that it's large enough and varied enough, geographically, to be five very different states).
I think we all agree that Texas -- because of its large size and unique history -- can be considered a region unto itself. However, your contention that is it not part of the South is your opinion only (and just as "biased" as you say mine is). Just as mine opposite is my opinion. The best I can do is back it up with valid research.

Quote:
So why not solve it that way? Make "Texas" a region much like Northeast, South, Southwest, Midwest, Northwest. Then we can discuss all the different cultures and peoples that went into the making up of the state, rather than claiming that it's South, Southwest, or Midwest, none of which are entirely accurate.
Sure, "we" can "solve" it that way. But fact is, states will always be grouped into regions if by no other reason than geographical convenience. Thus, I maintain that when Texas is put into a region (which it will be) then it is essentially a Southern state. That is, it shares much more in common, both historically and culturally (and thru self-identification via Texans themselves) with the Southeastern states as opposed to the Midwest, Far West, or Northeast.

That is and always has been, my main point on this topic. I understand fully that you don't consider Texas part of the South or yourself a Southerner. I am sure you have good reasons, and you have stated them in the past. All I ask is that you accept that there are others who feel differently. With all due respect, THL, many of your posts on this subject have contain the somewhat patronizing implication that those of us who DO consider ourselves both Texan and Southern are doing so out of groundless wishful thinking. Sorry, but it ain't so. Many of us actually do -- believe it or not -- base our opinions on solid evidence and research (as we see it) as opposed to Rhett Butler and Scarlet O' Hara fantasies! LOL

And in the end we just agree to disagree! Really, my biggest objection to this whole thread is that it just opens up an old can of worms that has been done to death. I am not going to change your mind or vice-versa.

Last edited by TexasReb; 12-07-2008 at 09:42 AM..

 
Old 12-07-2008, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in Texas
5,406 posts, read 13,227,516 times
Reputation: 2800
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
I hate to be so dramatic and formal, but here goes:


MEMO:

To: To all my fellow Southerners
From: A Texan


Please do not dignify, by responding, to this totally ridiculous and slanderous poll initiated by the person who goes under the moniker of TxGuy.

He does not , I repeat does not, speak for Texans, the overwhelming majority of who proudly identify ourselves as part of the South, and as Southerners (and I can provide the polling data to prove it). Even if from a unique perspective....

I am embarrassed that at one time I actually considered him a worthy opponent. As time went on, however, I saw it more and more for what it really was. That is, a fellow who not only nurtures a pathological hatred for the South, but is consumed by delusions of intellectual and moral superiority.

It started with this thread:

In this thread I will show you why Texas is not the South

His whole premise from the outset was ludicrous, and the same were totally destroyed by subsequent responses. For those who haven't...please read it. It speaks volumes. And I ain't just whistlin' Dixie....

I think he know this. So, in some sort of twisted way, his natural means of lashing out at those who tore his arguments from all over hell and half of Georgia is to post a poll such as this.

How pathetic...
I'm sorry, Texas Reb, but my impulsiveness is causing me to answer TxGuy. You are totally wrong TxGuy. Texas is a southern state and there's no doubt about it. You're just trying to "get the goat" of some of us.
 
Old 12-07-2008, 10:28 AM
 
542 posts, read 1,493,413 times
Reputation: 365
Southern influence? Yes. Southern history? To an extent, yes. Dominant culture? No.

Like others have posted before, Texas is a mish-mash of a number of cultures & influences, and it has always been just "Texas". To pigeonhole the state into one region does a great disservice to the people and their history.

If you follow stereotypes or are from somewhere far away, then Texas is gonna seem "Southern" to you. Grits, Sweet Tea, slower pace of life, calling people Yankees, Confederate membership & memorabilia, having the thickest drawl and other b.s. doesn't have anything to do with it. At least not anymore.
 
Old 12-07-2008, 10:33 AM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,516,642 times
Reputation: 5943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canine*Castle View Post
I'm sorry, Texas Reb, but my impulsiveness is causing me to answer TxGuy. You are totally wrong TxGuy. Texas is a southern state and there's no doubt about it. You're just trying to "get the goat" of some of us.
No apologies necessary CC. I thank you, in fact. Your reply about just trying to stir up trouble is right on the mark. The thread was not intended to provoke intelligent discussion/debate about regional culture...but just to "provoke."

It doesn't matter what position one takes on the general topic...as there is no objective truth to be discovered. What does matter though is how the issue is presented. And in this case, it was flat sophomoric, if not downright malicious.
 
Old 12-07-2008, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Texas
336 posts, read 696,032 times
Reputation: 148
Another stupid thread...just for the sake of starting arguments...
obviously the OP doesn't know how to read a map because there is
the N...S...E...and W....Texas is in the SOUTH...so, forget all of
the other silly things this poster is trying to use for the point of
mere arguing...we are the south...always will be...
 
Old 12-07-2008, 10:56 AM
 
542 posts, read 1,493,413 times
Reputation: 365
"The South" is only referred to in a historical context. Any time someone wants to bring up something that resembles "Southern" to them, it's usually confined to history.

But if you really wanna know if your state is "Southern" or has Southern roots, consider these questions:

-Origin of the state? Why did the people settle there?
-Who were the people that settled there, and where did they settle?
-Did they develop a slave system, and maintained one when a number of states to the North ended theirs?(Pre-Civil War)
-Was the cash crop/chief exports hogs, cotton, tobacco, corn, soybeans, etc. at any time?
-How did your state vote in the 1860 election? For or against Lincoln?
-What was your state's status before & during the Civil War?
-What about after Reconstruction? Was it ravaged and chaotic? Was the KKK established in any of these states? Where "black codes" legally implemented and enforced?
-Leading into the 20th century -- was your state mainly agricultural? Were there very few industrialized areas outside of cities? Was any violence against blacks or any other type of people fairly high compared to the North?
-Did your state lose a large percentage of its black population during the Great Migration?
-Did the Civil Rights Movement affect your state? Did any such movement occur in your state?

It may be stereotypical, but that's history, and that's what should count. If you can definitively answer at least yes to 5 or 6 of these questions, or can find answers that would put your state in "The South" or at least partially, then there you go.
 
Old 12-07-2008, 11:06 AM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,516,642 times
Reputation: 5943
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeyserSoze View Post
"The South" is only referred to in a historical context. Any time someone wants to bring up something that resembles "Southern" to them, it's usually confined to history.

But if you really wanna know if your state is "Southern" or has Southern roots, consider these questions:

-Origin of the state? Why did the people settle there?
-Who were the people that settled there, and where did they settle?
-Did they develop a slave system, and maintained one when a number of states to the North ended theirs?(Pre-Civil War)
-Was the cash crop/chief exports hogs, cotton, tobacco, corn, soybeans, etc. at any time?
-How did your state vote in the 1860 election? For or against Lincoln?
-What was your state's status before & during the Civil War?
-What about after Reconstruction? Was it ravaged and chaotic? Was the KKK established in any of these states? Where "black codes" legally implemented and enforced?
-Leading into the 20th century -- was your state mainly agricultural? Were there very few industrialized areas outside of cities? Was any violence against blacks or any other type of people fairly high compared to the North?
-Did your state lose a large percentage of its black population during the Great Migration?
-Did the Civil Rights Movement affect your state? Did any such movement occur in your state?

It may be stereotypical, but that's history, and that's what should count. If you can definitively answer at least yes to 5 or 6 of these questions, or can find answers that would put your state in "The South" or at least partially, then there you go.
While I disagree with most parts of your first reply -- in many realms -- I want to add that the above are very interesting questions, KS. Good ones!

In all of them, Texas history goes "yes."

Last edited by TexasReb; 12-07-2008 at 11:22 AM..
 
Old 12-07-2008, 12:06 PM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,516,642 times
Reputation: 5943
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeyserSoze View Post

-Leading into the 20th century -- was your state mainly agricultural? Were there very few industrialized areas outside of cities? Was any violence against blacks or any other type of people fairly high compared to the North?
Let me quibble just a bit with this one, KS. NOT that it is not a relevant criterion, but just that it needs qualified

Per capita wise, the South was no more violently racist than the North. Some of the worst race riots in history were in Northern states. Again, I see the point you are making...and accept it. Just that there is a larger picture to be considered as well....
 
Old 12-07-2008, 12:32 PM
 
48,505 posts, read 96,519,768 times
Reputation: 18301
IUn my opinon Teaxs is a blend of sothern and western culture in this country. Mant of its heroes were definitely from the south as well as its founders.
 
Old 12-07-2008, 08:14 PM
Status: "Victory for America!" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Suburban Dallas
52,581 posts, read 47,727,954 times
Reputation: 33669
Default Not Northern, For Sure

Quote:
Originally Posted by theamericanguy View Post
do you know where it is? It's definitely not in the North?
Well, so far, that's the best, most logical response I've seen on this silly thread.
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