Texas secede? (Alamo, Howe, Lone Star: crime, tax, move to)

[Fullback32]

As an enrolled member of the Comanche Nation of Oklahoma, I wish all y'all would leave.

As a NATIVE Native Texan, seriously folks, Texas secession has been thrown about ever since I can remember. Even back in high school in the 70's, I remember the REPUBLIC OF TEXAS AGAIN! t-shirts. This is nothing new.

What is different is the Governor talking it. I don't remember Briscoe, Clements, White, Richards, or Bush ever talking this way. IMO, it's just

(1) Perry grandstanding. Texas governors have a history of big talk. Anne Richards talked more trash than just about any Texas Governor that I remember.
(2) An attempt to stir up the sleeping Conservatives and Libertarians who sat around and did not get involved or punish politicians at the ballot box for the ridiculous spending and taxation that has been going on
(3) Sending a message to Washington

I am with him on the 10th Amendment resolution, but the secession statement was, let's say, irresponsible. We'll see how it affects his political future.

To say that Barak Obama, Nanci Pelosi, and Harry Reid and the rest of the Washington Politburo are exceeding their Constitutional authority is an understatement. Confiscation of private businesses, firing corporate executives, abridging the rights of the states guaranteed by the 10th Amendment all in the name of "saving the economy"...this is pretty unprecedented (with the exception of IRS activities ). You have Janet Napolitano calling those who oppose this administration "potential domestic terrorists" and her fusion centers gathering intel on the opposition. Supporters of Ron Paul, Bob Barr and Chuck Baldwin were specifically mentioned in this catagory. So you seemingly can't support a third party candidate or exercise your free-speech rights without being labeled as some sort of anarchist. This administration is turning the Department of Homeland Defense into a little KGB when it starts making reports like this. This is worrisome to some folks to say the least.

Secession probably won't ever happen. But I gotta admit, I can see problems arising if Washington continues down this course.

BTW, for all you people from other states who talk smack like "see ya", "don't let the door hit ya", and all that other trash...grow up. Texas Pride is there, always has been, always will be. I understand Texas Pride because I understand Comanche Pride. I will always be Comanche First, American Second. Texas "national" pride is no different.

[CmonFolks!]

Originally Posted by scarmig

Your insults are interesting interpretation of people who have different opinions than you.

Name an empire that does that does not collapse into brutal tyranny and ignominy.

Libertarians. But you knew I would say that. And I'm sure you have a pithy belittling response for them. Note: I'm not a Libertarian, but I understand their principals and they see exactly what you mention.

My response was to clarify the apparent insults to others who believe in smaller, lesser government than you. Wrapping them in verbosity doesn't remove the insult.

And yet you claimed such "backward thinking" is empirical. What measurements did you use to verify it? Do you genuinely believe that all who disagree with you are "backwards"? Lemmings the most intelligent beings in the universe? Just because you are happiest in the middle of the herd doesn't mean it's right for everyone.



And how would anyone, including you, know this, unless there were people thinking it and trying it? And how would the time come for it to *be* the right thinking if no one is trying it?


What if, as much as I may not like you imposing your will through force on me, I equally do not want to impose my will on you?

What if, as you suggest, moving to Mexico is not something I want to do? Are you one of those types who believes in forceful deportation of people who are not patriotic "enough"? Why go through all the expense of deporting me? Just set up a "work camp" and "rehabilitate" me through some good old-fashioned hard work!

Collectivist nationalism is, historically, very dangerous.

Sorry to sound insulting. The tone conveyed isn't necessarily the one intended. However, I wouldn't take what was said in the context as somehow threatening force upon you. But, the entire philosophy that the American government is somehow "out to get you" speaks for itself. That is, unless you've done something illegal. Then, of course I'd like to see some kind of action taken upon you that would minimize your recidivism – inclusive of a governing entity looking out for us at the national/international level.

If you’re a hard worker, you are given certain opportunities to work hard to reform your country as well. Secessionism in a free country is a philosophy for those who are irresponsible to their country, or, perhaps, unaware of their own abilities and choices to influence change in their country. Less government is admirable and can work only if you and I rise to the occasion to be able to influence the masses. Secessionism, in America today, is a cop-out. If you are in the extreme and can never respect your country enough to care about, go to another one that you can respect on your own volition. Meanwhile, you may be leaving a higher level of healthcare, education, services, amenities, standard of living, and/or individual rights behind.

I like the idealistic view of libertarianism. However, not a libertarian. That is as pithy as I will get.

You will have to get your own metrics associated with body counts, conflicts, and the perpetuation of conflict when it comes to the beginning, decline and the end of empires. Perhaps secessionist-minded folks are being themselves imperious when they even suggest secession from the U.S. Are they not fostering the development of their own empire and subjecting themselves and others to more of the same strife that afflicts any of us when we impose change upon ourselves as a human race? Secession from the U.S. is a lesson in hypocrisy as much as it is a lesson in our own backwards ability to destroy ourselves.

[rdfw]

Originally Posted by Fullback32

You have Janet Napolitano calling those who oppose this administration "potential domestic terrorists" and her fusion centers gathering intel on the opposition.

In a report ordered by the Bush administration, and released a couple of months after one saying similar things about "extreme left-wing" groups. You didn't see any liberal personalities stepping up to defend themselves from that report, why are the right-wing personalities and others stepping up to defend people like Timothy McVeigh, and why are they lumping themselves into the same category?
Why didn't these people say anything when Bush was ordering warrantless wiretapping and surveillance on members of anti-war protest groups? Don't cheer the organization of large-scale government-run surveillance if you are going to complain later when it turns on you.

Originally Posted by Fullback32

Supporters of Ron Paul, Bob Barr and Chuck Baldwin were specifically mentioned in this catagory. So you seemingly can't support a third party candidate or exercise your free-speech rights without being labeled as some sort of anarchist.

Again, these people are completely forgetting all the things republicans said during the Bush years against anyone questioning Bush and the war. Now, suddenly, it's a right to question the president, and even somehow strangely "pro-American" to talk openly about armed revolution, violence against representatives and secession... what's changed? Oh, the republicans lost the election... I see.

Originally Posted by Fullback32

This administration is turning the Department of Homeland Defense into a little KGB when it starts making reports like this. This is worrisome to some folks to say the least.

Again, the report was ordered by Bush and was begun in his administration. And there was an earlier report (in January, I think) talking about left-wing extremists... no comment from the republicans about that report, however... but they're eager to defend themselves as if they were Timothy McVeigh.

You have to wonder why these people want to call themselves right-wing extremists and hypocritically complain about such a report when the same people are talking about armed revolution.

[scarmig]

Originally Posted by CmonFolks!

Sorry to sound insulting. The tone conveyed isn't necessarily the one intended. However, I wouldn't take what was said in the context as somehow threatening force upon you. But, the entire philosophy that the American government is somehow "out to get you" speaks for itself. That is, unless you've done something illegal. Then, of course I'd like to see some kind of action taken upon you that would minimize your recidivism – inclusive of a governing entity looking out for us at the national/international level.

If you’re a hard worker, you are given certain opportunities to work hard to reform your country as well. Secessionism in a free country is a philosophy for those who are irresponsible to their country, or, perhaps, unaware of their own abilities and choices to influence change in their country. Less government is admirable and can work only if you and I rise to the occasion to be able to influence the masses. Secessionism, in America today, is a cop-out. If you are in the extreme and can never respect your country enough to care about, go to another one that you can respect on your own volition. Meanwhile, you may be leaving a higher level of healthcare, education, services, amenities, standard of living, and/or individual rights behind.

I like the idealistic view of libertarianism. However, not a libertarian. That is as pithy as I will get.

You will have to get your own metrics associated with body counts, conflicts, and the perpetuation of conflict when it comes to the beginning, decline and the end of empires. Perhaps secessionist-minded folks are being themselves imperious when they even suggest secession from the U.S. Are they not fostering the development of their own empire and subjecting themselves and others to more of the same strife that afflicts any of us when we impose change upon ourselves as a human race? Secession from the U.S. is a lesson in hypocrisy as much as it is a lesson in our own backwards ability to destroy ourselves.

That's very rich. An imperialist claiming that a secessionist is imposing his will on other people by even *talking* about secession!

Do you not see the basic premise? If you and I have an agreement, voluntary, not coerced, and the agreement no longer suits one of us, we have an inherent right to withdraw from the agreement. After all, the agreement was voluntarily made, it can be voluntarily unmade.

What applies to one, applies to many. And on the other side of your "if you don't like it, get out" is the problem you have, imperiously, with forcing people to be part of a political entity they no longer want.

See, I'm one these people that thinks the government should have to earn it's loyalty, not demand it. I think that if the government truly serves the people, and the people feel they get good value and service from supporting that government they won't want to secede, because the government is doing such a fine job. It is only a government that is ill fitting, wasteful, and destructive that could make people want to abandon it, and in that case, it *should* be abandoned. Deserves to be abandoned.

Secession can and should be the final check and balance on *any* government at any level, lest it fail to serve the people.

[Maabus1999]

Originally Posted by scarmig

That's very rich. An imperialist claiming that a secessionist is imposing his will on other people by even *talking* about secession!

Do you not see the basic premise? If you and I have an agreement, voluntary, not coerced, and the agreement no longer suits one of us, we have an inherent right to withdraw from the agreement. After all, the agreement was voluntarily made, it can be voluntarily unmade.

Do you truly believe that a peaceful secession is possible? If so, please explain.

Also, for some reason, this statement reminds me of Contract Law and people's "interesting" perceptions related to it.

[CmonFolks!]

Originally Posted by Fullback32

As an enrolled member of the Comanche Nation of Oklahoma, I wish all y'all would leave.

As a NATIVE Native Texan, seriously folks, Texas secession has been thrown about ever since I can remember. Even back in high school in the 70's, I remember the REPUBLIC OF TEXAS AGAIN! t-shirts. This is nothing new.

What is different is the Governor talking it. I don't remember Briscoe, Clements, White, Richards, or Bush ever talking this way. IMO, it's just

(1) Perry grandstanding. Texas governors have a history of big talk. Anne Richards talked more trash than just about any Texas Governor that I remember.
(2) An attempt to stir up the sleeping Conservatives and Libertarians who sat around and did not get involved or punish politicians at the ballot box for the ridiculous spending and taxation that has been going on
(3) Sending a message to Washington

I am with him on the 10th Amendment resolution, but the secession statement was, let's say, irresponsible. We'll see how it affects his political future.

To say that Barak Obama, Nanci Pelosi, and Harry Reid and the rest of the Washington Politburo are exceeding their Constitutional authority is an understatement. Confiscation of private businesses, firing corporate executives, abridging the rights of the states guaranteed by the 10th Amendment all in the name of "saving the economy"...this is pretty unprecedented (with the exception of IRS activities ). You have Janet Napolitano calling those who oppose this administration "potential domestic terrorists" and her fusion centers gathering intel on the opposition. Supporters of Ron Paul, Bob Barr and Chuck Baldwin were specifically mentioned in this catagory. So you seemingly can't support a third party candidate or exercise your free-speech rights without being labeled as some sort of anarchist. This administration is turning the Department of Homeland Defense into a little KGB when it starts making reports like this. This is worrisome to some folks to say the least.

Secession probably won't ever happen. But I gotta admit, I can see problems arising if Washington continues down this course.

BTW, for all you people from other states who talk smack like "see ya", "don't let the door hit ya", and all that other trash...grow up. Texas Pride is there, always has been, always will be. I understand Texas Pride because I understand Comanche Pride. I will always be Comanche First, American Second. Texas "national" pride is no different.

Lol. I'll throw this out in all fairness: Did the Comanche engage in conflict with other tribes, factions, or early "nations" in their early history? Please provide Comanche history - this is interesting. I am wondering what level of information there is on which native tribes the Comanche conquered and the land they took over from other tribes.

We have to ask ourselves if there are any nomadic/Clovis period people out there who say THEY are the NATIVE native native American.

The issue is the same throughout time. It is not about who "owned" land and resources, it is about who "owns" land and resources. American secessionists seek their own land and resources for the sake of their own brand of imperialistic thought and pride. This is no different from others in a society who maintain a perceived idea that they are victims of social disenfranchisement. Hmmm, victims in a comparitively free country.

It is political suicide for Washington to stay this involved perpetually in terms of nationalization and regulation. Obviously, re-election is not in the cards if it continues. We will just vote Republicans back into office - hopefully with a credible president this time around. Not really any fuel for the secessionist types.

Texas is right where it belongs at current - as an American state existing in political parity with every other. That's "political parity" - phrase from our constitution. I don't think any of us really want to say "see ya" to Texas or any other state. But, I would guess we don't want see Texas represented by the hubris and ambivalence of the special interest groups residing there.

[Fullback32]

Originally Posted by rdfw

In a report ordered by the Bush administration, and released a couple of months after one saying similar things about "extreme left-wing" groups. You didn't see any liberal personalities stepping up to defend themselves from that report, why are the right-wing personalities and others stepping up to defend people like Timothy McVeigh, and why are they lumping themselves into the same category?
Why didn't these people say anything when Bush was ordering warrantless wiretapping and surveillance on members of anti-war protest groups? Don't cheer the organization of large-scale government-run surveillance if you are going to complain later when it turns on you.


Again, these people are completely forgetting all the things republicans said during the Bush years against anyone questioning Bush and the war. Now, suddenly, it's a right to question the president, and even somehow strangely "pro-American" to talk openly about armed revolution, violence against representatives and secession... what's changed? Oh, the republicans lost the election... I see.


Again, the report was ordered by Bush and was begun in his administration. And there was an earlier report (in January, I think) talking about left-wing extremists... no comment from the republicans about that report, however... but they're eager to defend themselves as if they were Timothy McVeigh.

You have to wonder why these people want to call themselves right-wing extremists and hypocritically complain about such a report when the same people are talking about armed revolution.

Ummm...read the entirety of what I wrote. I am not advocating secession or armed revolution nor is anyone else. If you read closely, I did say it was irresponsible of the Governor to use the "S" word. I can guarantee you there is not one person of a true Conservative leaning that supports a guy like Timothy McVeigh. Nice propoganda though. The only people who support a McVeigh are members or sympathizers of white-separatist groups. I am most assuredly not white.

The folks at the Tea Parties were not just Republicans, but also Libertarians, Constitution Party members, Independents, and yes, some Democrats. Who wants to call themselves right-wing extremists? The only people calling us that are members of media. For the record, I am NOT a Republican and am NOT a Bush supporter. I haven't been happy since Ronald Reagan left office. Don't make assumptions. BTW...it IS a right to question the President or anyone else in office. If we don't, we become nothing but drones of the government.

[rdfw]

Originally Posted by CmonFolks!

It is political suicide for Washington to stay this involved perpetually in terms of nationalization and regulation. Obviously, re-election is not in the cards if it continues. We will just vote Republicans back into office - hopefully with a credible president this time around. Not really any fuel for the secessionist types.

Yeah, too much regulation and not enough republican pols is what got us in this mess...

The majority of Americans think this president is credible. A handful who feel left out are talking violence.

[rdfw]

Originally Posted by Fullback32

Ummm...read the entirety of what I wrote. I am not advocating secession or armed revolution nor is anyone else. If you read closely, I did say it was irresponsible of the Governor to use the "S" word. I can guarantee you there is not one person of a true Conservative leaning that supports a guy like Timothy McVeigh. Nice propoganda though. The only people who support a McVeigh are members or sympathizers of white-separatist groups. I am most assuredly not white.

The folks at the Tea Parties were not just Republicans, but also Libertarians, Constitution Party members, Independents, and yes, some Democrats. Who wants to call themselves right-wing extremists? The only people calling us that are members of media. For the record, I am NOT a Republican and am NOT a Bush supporter. I haven't been happy since Ronald Reagan left office. Don't make assumptions. BTW...it IS a right to question the President or anyone else in office. If we don't, we become nothing but drones of the government.

Plenty of people at these protests are advocating revolution, and even some representatives like Michelle Bachmann are talking arming the people and revolution. Don't be coy.

Again, the point was that this DHS report was ordered by the Bush admin and begun during his time in office. There was a report issued earlier this year on left-wing extremists. Why no uproar over that one?

Why did so many right-ists take such HUGE issue with the DHS report? It didn't once say the word "conservative", only "right-wing extremists" and then you have all these people, right-wing personalities and people at these protests defending themselves from the report, even calling themselves right-wing extremists.

These people (the phrase I used throughout my post, never once directly referring to you) never batted an eye when Bush was spying on anti-war protesters, but get all worked up over a standard-issue report on right-wing extremists. Curious.

[Fullback32]

Originally Posted by CmonFolks!

Lol. I'll throw this out in all fairness: Did the Comanche engage in conflict with other tribes, factions, or early "nations" in their early history? Please provide Comanche history - this is interesting. I am wondering what level of information there is on which native tribes the Comanche conquered and the land they took over from other tribes.

We have to ask ourselves if there are any nomadic/Clovis period people out there who say THEY are the NATIVE native native American.

The issue is the same throughout time. It is not about who "owned" land and resources, it is about who "owns" land and resources. American secessionists seek their own land and resources for the sake of their own brand of imperialistic thought and pride. This is no different from others in a society who maintain a perceived idea that they are victims of social disenfranchisement. Hmmm, victims in a comparitively free country.

It is political suicide for Washington to stay this involved perpetually in terms of nationalization and regulation. Obviously, re-election is not in the cards if it continues. We will just vote Republicans back into office - hopefully with a credible president this time around. Not really any fuel for the secessionist types.

Texas is right where it belongs at current - as an American state existing in political parity with every other. That's "political parity" - phrase from our constitution. I don't think any of us really want to say "see ya" to Texas or any other state. But, I would guess we don't want see Texas represented by the hubris and ambivalence of the special interest groups residing there.

Oh absolutely we did! Our people are related to the Shoshone people (we speak basically the same language). The story I was told was that there was a warrior from a Shoshone band would killed the son of a chief from another Shoshone band. This created war between the two bands. On the day of a battle an elder stood in the middle of the battle field and would not move. Because the members of both band repected this elder so much, they would not fight. The elder said that the band whose warrior killed the chief's son must leave. So they did and headed south and became the Comanche. Grandpa then said, "But I don't think it happened that way son. I think they just said, 'it's too damn cold up here!'"

When our people arrived in Texas and established Comancheria, we pushed the Apaches west and off of the Southern Plains. In fact, we warred with just about everyone....Tonkawas, Wichitas, Karankawas, Apaches...then the Spanish, the Mexicans, the Texans, and finally the Americans.

The word Comanche is not what we call ourselves. We call ourselves "Numunu", which means "The People". Comanche is a Spanish bastardization of a Ute word "Kohmahts" (those who are against us)....shows you what the Utes thought of us! Our people fought everyone and made finally alliances late in the game (with the Kiowa and Southern Cheyenne in particular).

My grandpa told me that the demise of the Karankawas on the Texas Gulf Coast was not due to the Spanish and their diseases exclusively like the history books say. He told me that when the Comanches got to the coast, they saw that the Karankawa were cannibals. The Comanche were so horrified by this, that they destroyed them.

Why did we fight other tribes? Simple, for the southern buffalo herds which were the largest on the continent. The fight against the Spanish and the Mexicans were for horses and maintenance of our ways. The people used to raid as far south as Monterrey, Mexico! The fight against the Texans and Americans was for survival.