Texas secede? (Alamo, Gonzales, Goliad: fence, moving, office)

[KerryB]

Please do. Then when Mexico becomes part of Texas (you'll be referred to as "Mexico Jr") & the oil dries up as the rest of the world use alternative energy, where would you be?

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by CmonFolks!

C'mon there, Tex! Why do you tend to concentrate and respond only to the style and delivery of my writing? I am asking you to debate against the content of what is being conveyed to you in the blog, thread, ...whatever. Also, do you actually have an expectation for me to write in a style like yours or, perhaps, think like you do too? (these questions are posed to articulate thoughts behind a theory, not to sound incendiary)

Anyway, here is another way of articulating myself: I hold theories about why Americans who are secessionist-minded think like they do in the first place. Luckily, I get to articulate these theories in the manner I see best to a diverse audience, unlike in others who might live in communist or restrictive regime-based country. You see, you and I are participating in a constitutional right that grants us freedom of speech or expression. In these discussions repeated substantiation against secession based on statehood legislation, law, rights, etc. has been belabored and really is a dead horse.

I am sorry to use what appears to be some strong language. Some like to think I am saying "Yer all a bunch a 'gol dang dumb arses". This is not true and is just an example of jumping to conclusions. What I'm asking for is, a rebuttal from the secessionist-minded Americans to theories that their mindset is based solely on socialized pride-based and antiquated sentiment and a belief system that perpetuates emotions/feelings of separation and segregation among people of their own ilk - even within their own free country. Help me understand why this is not the case. I don't have a kind word to describe why the few (not the many) would ever describe this republic like it was some kind of tyrannous monarchy.

Now, this is where it sounds like I'm just plain asking for too much: Why don't the secessionist-minded folks go work toward reforming their country in the places that hold power to fix all these perceived issues? Why don't they do this instead of trying to promote separation instead of unity?

I am from the American South (born/raised/live). I enjoy my freedoms as an American in what is still a comparatively free country and I do not take them for granted. I believe that secessionist-minded folks have the very same aggressive tendencies as those who they pontificate against as though they themselves are not among the self-righteous. That is all you need to know there, 'reb.

CF, as my "my status" might indicate, I am, for work reasons, going to be out of pocket for the next day or so. This weekend I can give the exchange more attention, so for the moment just let me briefly say (and again, no offence intended)...

1. Your verbose writing style is of a concern only to the point it affects your ability to make a discernable point. You often use it to talk past others and avoid questions presented to you.

2. The ONE thing for sure which comes thru loud and clear in your dissertation, is that those who don't think as you do are: Unpatriotic, ambivelant toward their fellow countrymen, intentionally divisive, and need to move to another country (Mexico). And of course, latent secessionists. As to the latter, I imagine this is because without a secessionist villian, you would sometimes lack the excuse to start your treatise...

3. You attempt to remove the history of the American Revolution from the formula because it doesn't suit your thesis.

4. You speak in soundbytes which involve such emotive phrases as "unity"...but seemingly place the burden of achieving such unity upon the backs of those who truly only want the Constitution of the United States to be administered as originally intended. A document which IS the epitome of original Union and unity.

What do YOU do to achieve the ideal of unity in this country?

5. I rambled on wayyy to long myself. LOL I have to get back to work! See everyone this weekend!

[CmonFolks!]

Originally Posted by scarmig

That's very rich. An imperialist claiming that a secessionist is imposing his will on other people by even *talking* about secession!

Do you not see the basic premise? If you and I have an agreement, voluntary, not coerced, and the agreement no longer suits one of us, we have an inherent right to withdraw from the agreement. After all, the agreement was voluntarily made, it can be voluntarily unmade.

What applies to one, applies to many. And on the other side of your "if you don't like it, get out" is the problem you have, imperiously, with forcing people to be part of a political entity they no longer want.

See, I'm one these people that thinks the government should have to earn it's loyalty, not demand it. I think that if the government truly serves the people, and the people feel they get good value and service from supporting that government they won't want to secede, because the government is doing such a fine job. It is only a government that is ill fitting, wasteful, and destructive that could make people want to abandon it, and in that case, it *should* be abandoned. Deserves to be abandoned.

Secession can and should be the final check and balance on *any* government at any level, lest it fail to serve the people.

Ok, then. Here is a premise for you: Seceding isn't just about separating from the perceived tyranny of the current oppressors. It is about people attempting to form yet another sovereign domain or empire based on ideals. How on earth is this not another example of imperialism?


To your point on a government earning its loyalty whereby, if it doesn't, it should void a contract and merit secession; Absolutely, in part. But, what about your loyalties and fiduciary responsibility as a citizen to your own country? There is a balance. You cannot expect something for nothing, nor should you expect one party of a contract to do all the “earning” as though you have nothing to earn yourself. What are your stipulations, metrics and thresholds that would qualify an entire state for secession? And then, why should our government honor your special interest slant on secession?

See, I'm one of those people who believe that the citizens of my country will maintain its civilization and standard of living by upholding and abiding by the laws that govern it (Fed, State, Local). And, while I work hard to earn my own family's living, I am still willing and able to do my part in sharing the responsibility for what WE ultimately are responsible for as voters, citizens and workers. I think the government only seems demanding to those who personally feel, or are led to believe, that they cannot make a difference themselves or that it is easier to quit and leave rather than pay taxes or help a greater cause then just the price of bread in their hometown. And it is these personal feelings of a few that should never merit trading in one wasteful establishment for another based on pride and their subjective reasoning about current establishment.

[CmonFolks!]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

CF, as my "my status" might indicate, I am, for work reasons, going to be out of pocket for the next day or so. This weekend I can give the exchange more attention, so for the moment just let me briefly say (and again, no offence intended)...

1. Your verbose writing style is of a concern only to the point it affects your ability to make a discernable point. You often use it to talk past others and avoid questions presented to you.

2. The ONE thing for sure which comes thru loud and clear in your dissertation, is that those who don't think as you do are: Unpatriotic, ambivelant toward their fellow countrymen, intentionally divisive, and need to move to another country (Mexico). And of course, latent secessionists. As to the latter, I imagine this is because without a secessionist villian, you would sometimes lack the excuse to start your treatise...

3. You attempt to remove the history of the American Revolution from the formula because it doesn't suit your thesis.

4. You speak in soundbytes which involve such emotive phrases as "unity"...but seemingly place the burden of achieving such unity upon the backs of those who truly only want the Constitution of the United States to be administered as originally intended. A document which IS the epitome of original Union and unity.

What do YOU do to achieve the ideal of unity in this country?

5. I rambled on wayyy to long myself. LOL I have to get back to work! See everyone this weekend!

Well, you seem like a real nice guy. But, it's hard talking with you when every time I say "Hello", your response will be "Sorry, too many L's".

[Future Trooper]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

Well, it's a myth that Texas retained the right to secede when it joined the Union. (More than any other state, that is.) So there's that.

I don't think it's likely. Sometimes I'd really, really, really love for us to, but, no, I don't think it will happen.

Is it to a myth that if Texas was to break up it has the right to divide into 8 states?

[ShortRound]

Howdy, folks:

Just checking in today.

What is it about you who would so disparage Texas?

Seems fiscally responsible folks kinda like the freedom of unnecessary regulation; While those on a Government handout sure like to trash the independent Lone Star State.

We are a "donor" state: We get back less than we contribute to to the Federal Treasury.

Go ahead and envy our economy that feeds your lazy free-loaders.

We are here to stay, and if we break away from the Union, it will have been done because we no longer want to support your welfare statist mindset.

[majoun]

Originally Posted by gdude

Is it to a myth that if Texas was to break up it has the right to divide into 8 states?

Five.

But if Texas broke up into five states, all five would be squabbling about who would get the Alamo.

[scarmig]

Originally Posted by CmonFolks!

Ok, then. Here is a premise for you: Seceding isn't just about separating from the perceived tyranny of the current oppressors. It is about people attempting to form yet another sovereign domain or empire based on ideals. How on earth is this not another example of imperialism?

My answer is, "not necessarily".

However, knowing that the US government would surely once again turn military troops on any seceding population it would be in their best interests to form a common, if temporary, defense against any military intrusion.

Wow, does this sound familiar?

To your point on a government earning its loyalty whereby, if it doesn't, it should void a contract and merit secession; Absolutely, in part. But, what about your loyalties and fiduciary responsibility as a citizen to your own country?

A country is a geo-political designation. My loyalties and fiduciary responsibilities are fulfilled by being productive and active in my local economy and culture. You seem to be confusing "country" with "Federal government". I view those two entities as distinctly separate and often opposed. I'm sure you've heard that old phrase, "I love my country, but fear my government".

There is a balance. You cannot expect something for nothing, nor should you expect one party of a contract to do all the “earning” as though you have nothing to earn yourself. What are your stipulations, metrics and thresholds that would qualify an entire state for secession? And then, why should our government honor your special interest slant on secession?

Just to throw a few out there: The base tax rate most people pay is higher than was was considered a just and fair tax by medieval lords on their serfs. The government of the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave decrees the very toilet you can have in your home. It is a federal crime to medicate yourself with certain natural substances. It is a federal crime to carry certain dead plants across invisible lines. It is illegal to trade food out of your own kitchen to your neighbor. Participation in welfare is mandatory whether you would ever use it or not. It is a federal crime to put certain words in certain orders. The entirety of the Drug War. The entirety of the Terror War. The farking TSA and Patriot Acts alone are grounds for abandoning the Federal government.

See, I'm one of those people who believe that the citizens of my country will maintain its civilization and standard of living by upholding and abiding by the laws that govern it (Fed, State, Local).

No matter how ridiculous they are? Just a blanket, "If it's the law, it must be good!"

And, while I work hard to earn my own family's living, I am still willing and able to do my part in sharing the responsibility for what WE ultimately are responsible for as voters, citizens and workers.

And that's great! Where do you get the justification to *force* other people who don't feel the same to do what you want them to do?

I think the government only seems demanding to those who personally feel, or are led to believe, that they cannot make a difference themselves or that it is easier to quit and leave rather than pay taxes or help a greater cause then just the price of bread in their hometown. And it is these personal feelings of a few that should never merit trading in one wasteful establishment for another based on pride and their subjective reasoning about current establishment.

So, basically, if people disagree with you, their opinions don't count and should not be considered.

And you wonder why people feel disenfranchised from the govenment.

[njkate]

Originally Posted by ShortRound

Howdy, folks:

Just checking in today.

What is it about you who would so disparage Texas?

Seems fiscally responsible folks kinda like the freedom of unnecessary regulation; While those on a Government handout sure like to trash the independent Lone Star State.

We are a "donor" state: We get back less than we contribute to to the Federal Treasury.

Go ahead and envy our economy that feeds your lazy free-loaders.

We are here to stay, and if we break away from the Union, it will have been done because we no longer want to support your welfare statist mindset.

Well if y'all do secede send me a DM as I'll immigrate to Texas...tired of this ridiculous Democratic nanny state I live in

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by CmonFolks!

Well, you seem like a real nice guy. But, it's hard talking with you when every time I say "Hello", your response will be "Sorry, too many L's".

HAHAHA There ya go, CF! Good humor and a good rejoinder I can appreciate! Good job!

Hell, when you post as you did in the last exchange with scarmig -- good questions yet with tight and strong opinion of your own -- you come across as human! *grins*

But seriously, as it is, I am still limited a bit with work obligations, but to say for the moment that while I pretty much agree with all the points Scarmig had to make, I hope you and I can exchange later in the same manner.