Texas secede? (Liberty, Jefferson: loan, buying, construction)

[CmonFolks!]

Originally Posted by scarmig

Jrsgun,

You've convinced me. I'm still resentful and opposed to the growing beast that is the US Federal government, but you've convinced me that trading it for a Texas Taliban government is no better. See, while you and I might agree on many things the Feds are doing that are wrong, we also have another problem. I doubt you would suffer my existence in your Texas, me being one of those infidel atheist types.

So I think what I have to do is learn to live free despite the Federal government, and learn to live free despite whatever influence you have on the Texas government.

Short and sweet: you've convinced me that I don't need or want *any* government to tell me or anyone else how to live free and well.

So, thanks for that. Job well done.

scarmig, don't you see it? Your very own neighbors are extremist forms of yourself. It comes from anyone who isolates themselves away from society (like a cult, or perhaps a clan) away from reality or, for some reason, cannot make it on their own. It's hilarious how pro-secessionists will never gain any ground in this country. Just like the extreme-left special interest liberals who dive off the deep end with activism. Only, in this case, you'll see it in the other extreme with intolerance of others – even intolerance of those who are taking the same side. You will relentlessly never agree with your fellow pro-secessionists because you cannot agree with them. When you finish weeding out all the nuts, you end up left with a small tattered pro-secessionist few who, even then, do not have the reasonable substantiation, legal backing, or political clout to ever make a difference. Or, maybe, you will remove the chip off your shoulder, remove the 19th century badge of honor you wear on your chest, and cancel the stubborn pride that keeps you from realizing that, in this world, you will only trade “evil” empire for “evil” empire upon secession. Your hatred of America is like jr “the nut” gun’s hatred of atheists. Maybe he thinks you’re just like the Obama administration: eeeeeevil! lol

Luckily, and I’ll say it again, we live in a FREE country. That is, a country with a COMPARITIVELY free society in which we live in this world where freedom of speech, free enterprise, free competition, and degrees of reasonable freedom of choice in how we live our lives is actually enforced by a judicial system! Can you believe that?!?!?

Now, let’s hear more of your perpetual complaining and whining about how bad things are for you personally. Let’s hear you rationalize your own private disdain of your own life by lazily blaming it on the “powers” that be. Let’s hear more parroting of gossip among your isolationist neighbors who love to draw attention to themselves by telling conspiracy tales about the Fed. Then, let’s hear you tell everyone how you will somehow fix these things you have soooo much knowledge about!!! Go help Congress repeal the patriot act – I DARE you to give back to the very entity which protects you as a citizen!!!

Actually, I like jrsgun because he and his ilk will be the reason why any pro-secessionist movement will never be taken seriously. Jrsgun’s insane ranting, rebel yells and spamming blogs will continue because he is a proud ambivalent person.

However, something tells me jrsgun will probably end up six feet under because he shot off his lunatic mouth to some gun-toting clansmen at a roadside bar somewhere outside of nowhere.

[CmonFolks!]

Originally Posted by Jrsgun

TexanByBirth links do not work with these Socialist,you have to hit them in gut with the facts and they can still be blind. This is a war of truth against Socialist lies.

ROLL UP YOUR SLEEVES & LET THE BATTLE BEGIN
GOD BLESS TEXAS & THE MILITARY

When you get home from working the nightshift as a paranoid schizo, do you still wear your hockey mask around the trailer?

[scarmig]

Originally Posted by CmonFolks!

scarmig, don't you see it? Your very own neighbors are extremist forms of yourself. It comes from anyone who isolates themselves away from society (like a cult, or perhaps a clan) away from reality or, for some reason, cannot make it on their own.

I think you might have a few misconceptions about me in there.

I *am* your neighbor. You use my products. We shop at the same stores. We participate in the same economy. We deal with the same jerks on the freeway. I'm not isolated from reality, or from society. I'm part of it, every single day.

Or, maybe, you will remove the chip off your shoulder, remove the 19th century badge of honor you wear on your chest, and cancel the stubborn pride that keeps you from realizing that, in this world, you will only trade “evil” empire for “evil” empire upon secession. Your hatred of America is like jr “the nut” gun’s hatred of atheists. Maybe he thinks you’re just like the Obama administration: eeeeeevil! lol

I doubt that his hatred of atheists is the same as my disgust with the United States Federal Government. You seem to not understand that I see a difference between Country and Government.

Luckily, and I’ll say it again, we live in a FREE country. That is, a country with a COMPARITIVELY free society in which we live in this world where freedom of speech, free enterprise, free competition, and degrees of reasonable freedom of choice in how we live our lives is actually enforced by a judicial system! Can you believe that?!?!?

No. I don't. Maybe because I've been watching it for a while. Maybe because I've see how that "judicial system" works. Shall I *again*, give you some examples?

You ever watch cop get paid off in cash for his testimony in court? I have. You ever see a man stripped of his family on admitted contrive and falsified evidence? Ever see a devoted father destroyed because he smoked the evil ganja to control the pain of his cancer?

Your beloved Federal government, in the Land of the Free, dictates what toilet you can have in your home. They dictate what history your children are allowed to learn. They dictate what safety features you car must have, whether you want them or not. They invade your privacy, data-mine your activities, eavesdrop on your calls regardless of whether you are a criminal or not. There are hundreds of thousands of laws hanging over you. And that's just the beginning.

What kind of government do you support when a man is pulled over by police for the bumper stickers he has on his car? What kind of government puts protesters in a corral and labels it a "free speech zone"? What kind of government taxes it's citizens more than nobility in the Dark Ages did?

Now, let’s hear more of your perpetual complaining and whining about how bad things are for you personally. Let’s hear you rationalize your own private disdain of your own life by lazily blaming it on the “powers” that be.

My life is pretty farking great over all. I happen to enjoy it. It would be even better if I didn't have good reason to fear the government you so blindly support.

Let’s hear more parroting of gossip among your isolationist neighbors who love to draw attention to themselves by telling conspiracy tales about the Fed. Then, let’s hear you tell everyone how you will somehow fix these things you have soooo much knowledge about!!! Go help Congress repeal the patriot act – I DARE you to give back to the very entity which protects you as a citizen!!!

Why would I support the people who have sworn to destroy me? I'm just trying to survive them.

I dare you to let other people be free to live their own lives.

It's your government. You stop it. Stop the Drug War. Stop the Terror War. Stop the all the liberty-destroying things this government is doing and then we can walk hand-in-hand into the sunset with our American Flags on our shoulders singing This Land is Your Land.

[Jrsgun]

CmonFolks! you may think your free now but when Barack Hussein Obama gets through with the U.S. Constitution you will not have any freedoms left. We are trying to fight to keep those freedoms he is trying to tear down and we intend to keep fighting. I do not hate atheists,if you have forgotten there is something called freedom of religion in the Constitution,the same one he is trying to tear down. I believe in God,Country & the U.S. Constitution and that means no one is going to tear them down if I can help it without a good fight. But I will not have someone tell me what to believe.This Country & Texas as well, were were built on those core beliefs. Men & Women died to protect those beliefs and they will not die in vain.
I have a good life ,good wife,good son & step-daughter & beautiful grandchildren. My grandchildren are half black & half white and some are not,but I love them dearly. The only thing I hate is ass-holes & maggots.

ROLL UP YOUR SLEEVES & LET THE BATTLE BEGIN
GOD BLESS TEXAS & THE MILITARY

[Spade]

I believe in God,Country & the U.S. Constitution

And so do the people that voted for Obama.

[Jrsgun]

Spade, I figured you would show up eventually. I need some higher boots for what you just said. The people who voted for Barack Hussein Obama and that probably includes you as well,do not know what you have done, other than probably being selfish and thinking about your own self instead of the entire Country. Because Barack Hussein Obama is fixing to take away those three, GOD,Country & The U.S.Constitution, cherished by those Americans who have fought and died for all three and still are today. But of course you will not believe it because you are to blind to see.

ROLL UP YOUR SLEEVES & LET THE BATTLE BEGIN
GOD BLESS TEXAS & THE MILITARY

[Jrsgun]

scarmig being an Atheist is your belief and what you believe is what is called freedom of religion as long as keep your beliefs to yourself and do not force them on me. That is where freedom,liberties play apart in the U.S.Constitution. I believe in Jesus Christ and you do not, but as long as fundamentally we believe in Keeping the U.S. Constitution & this Country intact and not let the Socialist destroy it we can win this fight. My views about secession are probably not yours but at least if it means self presevation if we have to secede you would still be able to have freedom of religion. But like I pointed out before Texas is not the only state that pleaded the 10th Amendment and then some. These states are fighting for survival just like Texas is, and in order to survive you have to fight for what you truly believe .

ROLL UP YOUR SLEEVES & LET THE BATTLE BEGIN
GOD BLESS TEXAS & THE MILITARY

[Jrsgun]

Secede?

By Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr When a famous conservative told me ten years ago that "the U.S. is too big," and only "breaking it up into 35 different countries" would preserve a free and decent society, I was shocked. Today, leaving aside the exact number of successor states, I wonder if he wasn't right.
Certainly secession is sweeping the world, much to the dismay of the State Department and the Council on Foreign Relations. Secession freed many subject peoples of Moscow and Belgrade. In Italy, the powerful Lega Nord political party advocates separation from the rapacious central government in Rome, and from welfare areas of Southern Italy.
Russia itself may now break up, since Moscow continues to hold many nations subject within the "federation." Belgium separated into two countries, one for the French-speaking Walloons and one for the Flemish-speaking minority. Quebec may leave English-speaking Canada. And the African artifices of colonial cartographers may dissolve as well.
In almost every African country, a dominant tribe oppresses all the rest. Why shouldn't each people have sovereignty? In fact, why shouldn't the whites of South Africa have their own homeland as well?
In the U.S., meanwhile, the central government gets more tyrannical and expensive by the day. Is it time to think about bidding it adieu?
Certainly, secession from Britain made a lot of sense. Whenever "any Form of Government becomes destructive" of the inalienable rights granted by the Creator, writes Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence "it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government." When a "long train of abuses and usurpations" shows "a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government."
Every man and every body of men on earth, possesses the right to self-government," Jefferson wrote elsewhere, and in 1786, he even defended Shay's tax revolt, which was suppressed by federal troops. To Jefferson, "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
That same year, he wrote to James Madison advocating secession for what were then the western states, after Congress had proposed to make them fewer and larger. "This is reversing the natural order of things," he wrote. "A tractable people may be governed in large bodies; but, in proportion as they depart from this character, the extent of their government must be less.
Thirty years later, Jefferson wrote: "If any State in the Union will declare that it prefers separation" over "union," "I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.
Not everyone agreed. In his farewell address, George Washington – who had been horrified by Shay's rebellion – condemned "every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest." Still, the freedom to secede was accepted by many American political leaders. In 1848, even Abraham Lincoln endorsed it: "Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable – a most sacred right – a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.
Nor," said Lincoln, "is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much of the territory as they inhabit.
When he became president, Lincoln called secession the "essence of anarchy." Not because of slavery, but because of taxes. Tariffs were the major source of federal revenue and like all taxes, a powerful tool of the special interests. In this case they were used to protect Northern manufacturers from foreign competition at the expense of Southern agriculture, and to fund Northern public works projects.
Surpassing even the "tariff of abominations" of 1832, Lincoln doubled tariffs when he entered office to their highest rate in American history, threatening to impoverish the South, which imported almost everything.
In his 1861 inaugural speech, Lincoln told the South it must pay taxes. He would use, if necessary, "bloodshed or violence" against the seceding states "to collect the duties and imposts," but for no other purpose.
The secession had to be stopped, a Union newspaper in Boston editorialized, because the South would be a low-tax nation with a "revenue system verging on free trade." If "only a nominal duty is laid upon imports" in Southern ports, the "business of the chief Northern cities will be seriously injured.
Woodrow Wilson too seemed to support secession for all peoples, when he said in 1918 that "no people must be forced under sovereignty under which it does not wish to live." But a year later, he backed off: there were too many nationalities! "When I gave utterance to those words, I said them without the knowledge that nationalities existed, which are coming to us day after day.
Although Wilson talked endlessly about self-determination, he was actually against the break-up of unified states. He would have agreed with Eleanor Roosevelt, who asked, while the U.S. representative to the UN, "Does self-determination mean the right of secession?... Obviously not.
Sometimes tyrants, knowing the appeal of secession, have used it as a ruse. In 1931, for example, before the Chinese Communist Party came to power, it guaranteed the "right to complete separation from China" to various nationalities including "Mongolians, Tibetans, Miao, Yao, Koreans, and others living on the territory." After the Party took over, its promise went the way of Lenin's similar lie. But when China is freed from communism, as it will be, we can expect to see many regions, including the more prosperous Canton, separating from the hated Peking.
Centralized states like the U.S. resort not only to military force to prevent secession, but also to spending. The cash continues to flow unless a state shows even the slightest inclination to independence. Even on minor matters like the drinking age, seatbelt laws, and speed limits, the feds threaten to cut off all funds unless the state legislatures capitulate, which they soon do.
Yet why should Palm Springs taxpayers subsidize Appalachian welfare? Or Appalachians subsidize Arkansas farmers? Or Alaskans build public housing in Atlanta? Why should Texas, once an independent nation, have to take orders from anyone? Jefferson's test for a justified secession was "a long train of abuses and usurpations." Today's train makes George III's look like a caboose.
As long as the states are held under the federal thumb, they will never be able to experiment with free markets. National labor, tax, environmental , civil rights, and regulatory codes will not allow it. Wisconsin, for example, had to seek Washington's approval to try a very minor welfare reform.
No people and no part of a people shall be held against its will in a political association that it does not want," wrote Ludwig von Mises. Otherwise economic freedom would suffer along with political freedom. For Mises, international cooperation was as important as domestic cooperation, but this was achieved through free trade, not unified politics.
Is secession the only hope for restoring freedom of all sorts? Perhaps, if we are not content indefinitely to be a "tractable people.

[Jrsgun]

The love of one's state is not treason, loyalty to one's home is not treason. The belief in government of and by the people is not treason. The belief in the 10th Amendment to the Constitution reserving all rights not specifically delegated to the Federal government to the States and People is not treason. Tyranny, oppression and perversion and usurpation of the Constitution is treasonous.

[CmonFolks!]

Originally Posted by scarmig

I think you might have a few misconceptions about me in there.
I *am* your neighbor. You use my products. We shop at the same stores. We participate in the same economy. We deal with the same jerks on the freeway. I'm not isolated from reality, or from society. I'm part of it, every single day.

Then you're my neighbor who will protest any form of order to suit your own personal whimsy or paranoia.

Just because you participate in this economy and just because you drive on the same roads does not provide any evidence against isolationistic thinking. As a secessionist, the very crux of your special interest groups' beliefs is *separation* away from others as the answer because you perceive "they" are "out to get you".

So, perhaps, it is paranoia that is driving your separatist beliefs. Perhaps the government isn't really the enemy that affects you so much as it is your own personal issues that drive your feelings of ambivalence towards others.

If you aren't already isolated from the rest of society initially, then maybe you just want to be isolated from society because you are paranoid. Whether it is your government, your home owners association, or your own family member, paranoia will cause you to want separation, and secession, purely out of conjured anxiety.

Maybe this paranoia has been bred into you by those around you, and, maybe, you might attempt to breed this paranoia into others around you too. Let's see, if you throw in state hubris and a 19th century secessionist sentiment, you should have much success in leveraging conspiracy theories and anti-government pandering socialize your "cause" among the weak minds around you. Just a theory.

There must be a more believable root cause to secessionist thinking. You don't really provide much sustentative merit to your opinions aside from the common pandering of your *feeling* that the Fed is wholly bad based on sound bites in the media.

Additionally, we use OUR domestically produced products as Americans.

Originally Posted by scarmig

I doubt that his hatred of atheists is the same as my disgust with the United States Federal Government. You seem to not understand that I see a difference between Country and Government.

Then again, maybe ambivalence is ambivalence - just different targets. As a secessionist, you want to leave your *country* because of animosity toward its *government*. I'm glad you see a difference, but there seems to be a pretty direct relationship in your mind.

Originally Posted by scarmig

No. I don't. Maybe because I've been watching it for a while. Maybe because I've see how that "judicial system" works. Shall I *again*, give you some examples?

You ever watch cop get paid off in cash for his testimony in court? I have. You ever see a man stripped of his family on admitted contrive and falsified evidence? Ever see a devoted father destroyed because he smoked the evil ganja to control the pain of his cancer?

Your beloved Federal government, in the Land of the Free, dictates what toilet you can have in your home. They dictate what history your children are allowed to learn. They dictate what safety features you car must have, whether you want them or not. They invade your privacy, data-mine your activities, eavesdrop on your calls regardless of whether you are a criminal or not. There are hundreds of thousands of laws hanging over you. And that's just the beginning.

What kind of government do you support when a man is pulled over by police for the bumper stickers he has on his car? What kind of government puts protesters in a corral and labels it a "free speech zone"? What kind of government taxes it's citizens more than nobility in the Dark Ages did?

Watching, huh. Whatching what, TV shows? So, you have some other ideas about what your toilet should look like? Should our children be allowed to learn whatever "version" of history they want? You have something against safety features? Are they invading your privacy there personally? Is the "government police" pulling people over in your town for bumper stickers? Listen, it seems you concentrate only on the glimmer of what you see within your little microcosm and forget about the rest. You use a smallest sample to somehow judge the whole. It really sounds personal to me.

You seem to promote no code, no standards, no structure, and no constraints. Are we an anarchist scarmig? Or, maybe you must have that magical mysterious sense to somehow see all the evil in structure while the rest of us apparently don't.

Originally Posted by scarmig

My life is pretty farking great over all. I happen to enjoy it. It would be even better if I didn't have good reason to fear the government you so blindly support.

Blindly support? I'm an American who doesn't take for granted what I have BECAUSE I'm an American. You blindly reject the government BECAUSE you just feel fear. btw, Are you on the lam?

Originally Posted by scarmig

Why would I support the people who have sworn to destroy me? I'm just trying to survive them.

So, now the government is chartered to destroy you scarmig? Did you know you just sound insane? See a doctor or jump in jrsgun's '83 dooly and the two of you can visit brownsville together and get your fill of tequila.

Originally Posted by scarmig

I dare you to let other people be free to live their own lives.

You promote chaos, not freedom.

Originally Posted by scarmig

It's your government. You stop it. Stop the Drug War. Stop the Terror War. Stop the all the liberty-destroying things this government is doing and then we can walk hand-in-hand into the sunset with our American Flags on our shoulders singing This Land is Your Land.

[/quote]
It's MY government?!?!?! Are you even a U.S. citizen? Waaait a minute, are you blogging from Cuba?
Did you say you DON'T isolate yourself from society? I quote scarmig: "It's your government...". scarmig, you are completely isolated. Generally, secession in a comparatively free country is an attempt to further isolate yourself from others you personally feel ambivalent towards. In your case, you have a nice case of paranoia to boot.