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Old 08-02-2009, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Greenville, Delaware
4,726 posts, read 11,939,934 times
Reputation: 2650

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Lovely95, that's facile IMO. It would be nice perhaps if things could be reduced to that dichotomy, but it doesn't reflect reality. Lubbock really isn't culturally southwestern, even though Lubbockites gravitate toward NM and Colo for their holidays -- more to do with proximity and a change of scenery than with any similarity between the South Plains and the Sangre de Cristo or the Front Range. Lubbock can hardly be labelled southeastern -- there's cotton, but not much else in common with the Lower South (religious conservatism perhaps). Parts of TX just don't fit neatly into the standard classifications.

 
Old 08-02-2009, 11:06 AM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,547,793 times
Reputation: 5943
Oh lord...THIS one again....

Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorjef View Post
Oh dear, another one of these threads.
LOL No, actually this one has been around a while. But many if not most of us just hoped it would stay dead, as it has been beaten to death. Yet, guaranteed to remain alive for a while once it rises from the grave!

Having said that, since the monster is once again on the prowl, then here are just a few comments, which, I might add, I thought were very good. I don't generally agree with many of your posts, Dr.J, but much of what your write here I would -- to some degrees and with qualifications -- go along with for the most part.

Quote:
IMO Texas transcends any single region while covering several. East Texas is geographically and culturally part of the South. The Panhandle has a lot in common culturally and geographically with the Plains States part of the Midwest (understanding that "Midwest" is an overly general term that is used to cover states as different as Ohio, Michigan, Missouri, and Nebraska). Even the North Texas DFW Metroplex (esp Fort Worth) have Prairie-Plains States aspects. Austin, San Antonio, San Angelo, and the Trans-Pecos are more Southwestern than anything else.
Without getting to lengthy into all the aspects of what part belongs where, the Midwest notation is a good one. And applies to the South as well. This is why I have always maintained that "the South" is not necessarily the southeast. Like with the Midwest, it is a diverse region bonded more by historic and cultural ties, than geographic ones. And self-identification. It can be divided up in its own right (see map below).

Quote:
However, demographics in Texas have changed considerably in the past 70 years and formerly most of the state could have been more fairly classified as culturally and conceptually part of the South. It's just not that simple now.
No, it isn't (that simple, anymore). I just got thru reading Rudolph Campbell's "Gone To Texas". A sub-thesis is that while Texas is still part of the South in terms of its history and culture being understood and translated, there are changes going on so far as demographics go that could easily lead to its becoming more truly "Southwestern". It may be years before it happens, but the trend is there...

Quote:
Having said all this, I would agree that there are still aspects of speech, manners and folkways throughout most of Texas that are essentially Southern. It's part of the shared cultural heritage; yet Texas is Texas and not really part of the South in the same way that the other states historically associated with the CSA are, nor certainly in the way that the states of the Lower South are.
This I pretty much agree with. Texas -- as a whole -- is essentially a Southern state. BUT...not in a way, as you say, most of the other states of the Old Confederacy, are. I emphasize "most", because it is not true of all. In terms of self-identification at least, Florida and, to a lesser extent, Virginia, are less "Southern" today, than Texas.

I can't remember where I once read it, but the best summation I ever read as concerns Texas' modern day relationship to the rest of the South was something like: "A Southern state, certainly...yet not completely in or of the South."

But coming back to the main point, one of the things that off-set Texas from the beginning was that streak of independence. After the War, we were able to recover in a way not possible for the southeast. This is a sub-topic unto itself, but bottom line is, that yes, Texas -- almost from the start -- was "different" and remained so. Which is why, unlike those in many parts of the South -- particularly the Deep South (as you note) -- Texans tend to think of themselves as being Texans before being Southerners. (Personally, I see the two as being very connected, but that is not important right now). This is not indicitive of repudiating or denying the connection and/or regional affliation with the South...it is just that the "Texan" identity is first and foremost among many natives.

On the other hand, especially in the Lower South, natives tend to think of themselves as Southerners first...then (state) next.

Here is one of the best maps I ever saw which labeled the various areas of the South as in historical/cultural sub-divisions. As concerns Texas (and lots of Oklahoma) the "Western South" designation is right on target. It "indicates" the differences with the southeast, but incorporates and blends the essential Southerness with the very real characteristics of the frontier era of the west.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/elikos91/south-3.jpg (broken link)
 
Old 08-02-2009, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in the universe
2,155 posts, read 4,568,490 times
Reputation: 1465
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorjef View Post
Lovely95, that's facile IMO. It would be nice perhaps if things could be reduced to that dichotomy, but it doesn't reflect reality. Lubbock really isn't culturally southwestern, even though Lubbockites gravitate toward NM and Colo for their holidays -- more to do with proximity and a change of scenery than with any similarity between the South Plains and the Sangre de Cristo or the Front Range. Lubbock can hardly be labelled southeastern -- there's cotton, but not much else in common with the Lower South (religious conservatism perhaps). Parts of TX just don't fit neatly into the standard classifications.
Yes that is more like plains but most areas where people live are SW or SE. I didn't even say Lubbock was SE.
 
Old 08-02-2009, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
20,507 posts, read 33,393,817 times
Reputation: 12130
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmnita View Post
I am thinking you are talking about places like Amarillo, right? That is about as panhandle as you can get or maybe you are talking about a few small towns near the OK border. of course there is some over-lap, you don't just cross the state line and have everything change, but even Amarillo isn't much like Kansas. We are not talking tapolgraphy or i don't think that is what the OP meant. As for DFW area, give me a break, most people in the area would certainly disagree with you on that. Again, most of this is generalizing, there are exceptions to every rule and statement. NWA is more midwestern than southern as well, but certainly the state of AR isn't midwestern in nature of geographically.

Nita
Disagree with me on what? That I said that it has some midwestern characteristics? I don't think they will. Me saying that it has some Midwestern characteristics is not saying that the DFW area is Midwestern at all. Chicago has some Southern characteristics especially in the Black community but yet nobody would call Chicago a Southern city. And yes, Amarillo is alot like Western Kansas and many people on this board has said this. Heck, I don't even have to go by this board. I've seen it from experience.
 
Old 08-02-2009, 11:59 AM
 
1,377 posts, read 4,202,106 times
Reputation: 997
Old school native Texan here, if you had to categorize the entire state, I would say neither, to me it's southwestern. Although, eastern and north (Dallas) have a bit more of a midwestern influence to them. Many Californians move to Dallas so even a west coast feel is present among the people. But TX is so big, desert in the west, trees and hills in the central, and the coastal feel on the Gulf. Also, it's the only state I know that can go from 110 in summer to the 20's in winter and can change with little notice.
 
Old 08-02-2009, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,384 posts, read 25,646,792 times
Reputation: 10591
Depends on the part of the state. The Tyler/Longview area is very southern. The area around Houston is very southern as well. The I-35 corridor from the Waco to the Mexican border feels more Southwestern. Dallas feels a cross Midwestern and Southern. Fort Worth is feels very Southwestern. Everything west of 35 is Southwestern.
 
Old 08-02-2009, 04:21 PM
 
Location: At the center of the universe!
1,179 posts, read 2,057,092 times
Reputation: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAnative10 View Post
Depends on the part of the state. The Tyler/Longview area is very southern. The area around Houston is very southern as well. The I-35 corridor from the Waco to the Mexican border feels more Southwestern. Dallas feels a cross Midwestern and Southern. Fort Worth is feels very Southwestern. Everything west of 35 is Southwestern.
Yeah this is pretty much my impression. West of Austin is more southwestern but east of Austin is southern. Going east from Austin to Louisiana this is the part of the state that grew a lot of cotton, had a lot of farming in general, had a lot of slaves. Most of the black people in the state live in this eastern part of Texas. All of these things are southern traits. In addition to these are the southern accents and all the Confederate flag waving people in the piney woods of east Texas. I've driven up U.S. 59 from Houston to Lufkin. My impression is the people in this east Texas area like Confederate flags and are southern Baptists. These are southern (southeastern) qualities. Yeah I agree Texas is so big it's really 4 different regions but the area I'm talking about is the San Antonio, Austin latitude part of Texas from east of Austin to Louisiana.
 
Old 08-02-2009, 05:12 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,959,294 times
Reputation: 1849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo2008 View Post
Yeah this is pretty much my impression. West of Austin is more southwestern but east of Austin is southern. Going east from Austin to Louisiana this is the part of the state that grew a lot of cotton, had a lot of farming in general, had a lot of slaves. Most of the black people in the state live in this eastern part of Texas. All of these things are southern traits. In addition to these are the southern accents and all the Confederate flag waving people in the piney woods of east Texas. I've driven up U.S. 59 from Houston to Lufkin. My impression is the people in this east Texas area like Confederate flags and are southern Baptists. These are southern (southeastern) qualities. Yeah I agree Texas is so big it's really 4 different regions but the area I'm talking about is the San Antonio, Austin latitude part of Texas from east of Austin to Louisiana.

haha...A bit of an oversimplification...but ok..lol
 
Old 08-02-2009, 06:04 PM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,547,793 times
Reputation: 5943
The biggest "monkey-wrench" thrown into the whole works is what does one mean when they say "Southwest"? Does it mean the western part of the South at large...or the southern part of the West?

The "definition" evolved as the country expanded westward. Originally, it literally meant the western part of the southern part of the United States. When first coined, it encompassed Tennessee, Mississippi and Alabama. After the Louisiana Purchase, Arkansas and Louisiana. After the Texas Revolution, Texas (and still later, Oklahoma with its strong Southern influences) was considered the "Southwestern frontier".

But point being that it was always defined as the frontier/western extentions of parts of the country which could fairly be called Southern.

When New Mexico and Arizona became states, they too became to be considered "southwestern"...but in a whole different context. Theirs was geographic. Ours was largely historical and cultural. West of Texas (other than a small slice of eastern New Mexico) any connection with the traditionally defined South, ceased. While Texas definitely has post-bellum western frontier era characteristics, there is almost nothing about New Mexico and Arizona (the core interior SW states) that have Southern characteristics.

This is why Texas (and most of Oklahoma) are not -- of course in the proverbial IMHO -- cannot be placed in a totally seperate U.S. region labeled "Southwest" with those two states. And from the opposite direction, every interaction with natives out that way say the same thing. It is just two different "Southwests". One (ours) western South...the other, southern West. Both sub-regions of larger, different, regions...even if they go by the same common designation of "Southwest."

Of course, all this is as a whole as concerns Texas. No doubt that the trans-pecos is truly part of the interior Southwest. And arguably, large parts of South Texas as well. Essentially however, Texas history and culture make it, overall, part of the South. A very unique part of it, and certainly not a typical part of it. But basically Southern.

It sure ain't Midwestern! And very few natives would disagree with that...even if they think I am "full of it" in other ways! LOL

Last edited by TexasReb; 08-02-2009 at 06:37 PM..
 
Old 08-02-2009, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,958 posts, read 45,268,670 times
Reputation: 24738
When I say Southwest, I mean a region distinctly separate from the South. Which, in my considered opinion as a minimum 4th generation Texan who grew up in East Texas, as you know is what Texas is, if it's anything but Texas. NOT a part of the South, even though some of the areas adjoining Louisiana share SOME of its characteristics (but not enough to make it so, at least, not when I was growing up there and still had family living there - the family farm is STILL there).

It's not really Southwest, either, but an amalgamation of all of the influences that went into the melting pot that made the great state that is Texas today. Can't say that any one of them overrides all the others.

And your initial reaction, by the way, was mine when I saw that this Thread That Will Never Die had been resurrected once again. Here goes the merry-go-round again!
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