Toledo - Southwyck Mall Demolition (Green: taxes, areas, build)

[truemuck]

Originally Posted by vroomster

Nobody needs more malls. America has tons of them and many are being torn down and redeveloped. However, "lifestyle centers" as they're known, benefit the community at large by including residential, offices, and entertainment options along with traditional retail. Mixed use developments like Levis Commons function as a stand-alone entity (like a traditional mall) while being well integrated within the region.

Have you been to Legacy Village in Beachwood?

Its a "lifestyle center" and while, its nice and I like it. Its nothing more than just a mall with no roof. You're essentially replacing one kind of mall for another.

Here's a decent editorial about it:
http://www.cleveland.com/legacy/plai...926184423.html

[Beavercreek33]

Lifestyle centers are a new "boom" in America though. They are mixed use which means people can live there too. Here in Dayton, The Greene offers residency. Crocker Park in Westlake near Cleveland is also similar.

[yayoi]

Originally Posted by nickw252

I wouldn't really consider more big-box chains progress. Doesn't anyone in Toledo have a sense of community? What about local business? If you must have a big-box store, what about Anderson's? Or Meijer or Kroger? At least Meijer is a smaller Michigan chain and Kroger is based out of Ohio rather than sending all your money to China through Wal-Mart. Better yet, what about locally owned small businesses like coffee shops, restaurants, small supermarkets or health food stores like Kazmaier's, Schorling's, or Bassett's, etc.? Wouldn't you rather your money be kept in the Toledo area?

Doesn't anyone ever wonder how we got into the shape we're in now? More Wal-Marts and Targets certainly aren't the answer.

Here is information on a group of Toledo businesses that's trying to encourage Toledoans to support local business, it's called Toledo Choose Local:

Toledo Choose Local - Welcome to Toledo Choose Local

Say what you want about Walmart and Target. They're popular for a reason. While the idea of having local businesses in Northtown is admirable, I don't think it would be the wisest decision for that particular area.

[Hey_Hey]

My opinion on local versus chains is this: I shop at whichever place will provide the superior product for a superior value. I include in that analysis ease of shopping, customer service, price, quality of product, variety of options, and convenience. If a local store beats a chain store then I'll shop there. If a chain store beats a local store then I'll shop there.

The problem with any type of "mixed use" development is that you need a strong and growing economic base. Without that growing base, any increase in service, housing, and retail offerings simply transfers sales and occupied dwellings to the new development from already existing developments. In Toledo (and Ohio in general) we're dealing with a zero-sum scenario when it comes to retail and housing. Opening a new mixed development at Southwyck will only serve to damage a place like Southland shopping center or areas along Airport Rd which, of course, then causes those places to become blighted.

In my opinion, Southwych needs to remain green space until which time a true contributor to the Toledo area economy can be built there. I would like to see a business park like Arrowhead to encourage increased economic output. It would be a great site for all of the alternative energy businesses, biotech businesses or whatever else to be located.

[Dennuchi46]

hey hey -The developer has said that he is going to bring in many new stores that are not currently in our local area not to mention that green space is just another place for crime to decend upon. The city does not now have the where withall to police the city. Part of the reason that mall went to hell was because of the crime there that was not attened to. The vast majority of the home owners that surround Southwyck will certinally shop there. You know that mall did very well before the youngens started hanging in groups. Had the management taken control of the problem the mall would still be in operation.

[Hey_Hey]

New stores or not, Toledo only has a fixed amount of disposable income. Many of the stores at Fallen Timbers were new to the area, but that doesn't mean they are successful or that they haven't siphoned off business from existing stores in their genre of retail. For example, let's say that the new development has a new sports bar. While that's new to the area it will most definitely take business away from Frickers and Buffalo Wild Wings and Jed's and other sports bars/entertainment that already exist. That doesn't mean it won't succeed, but the total amount of money Toledoans spend on that type of entertainment will not change. As such, someone is going to lose, and if a Fricker's closes and becomes vacant because the business moved to the new sports bar then what has the city gained? The same can be said for women's retail or goceries, or gyms, or book stores, or whatever else you can think of. The benefit places like Nashville or Atlanta or Dallas have is that they have a continually growing population and a continually expanding economy with continually expanding amounts of disposable income. As such, those places can absorb new developments without existing developments suffering. Obviously, Toledo does not have that luxury.

I would also respectfully disagree with the assertion that green space increases crime. I've never heard anyone say that Swan Creek Metropark is a nidus for criminal activity in South Toledo or that International Park downtown is the center of criminal enterprises. There is nothing inherently appealing to criminals about green spaces.

[vroomster]

Originally Posted by Hey_Hey

The problem with any type of "mixed use" development is that you need a strong and growing economic base. Without that growing base, any increase in service, housing, and retail offerings simply transfers sales and occupied dwellings to the new development from already existing developments. In Toledo (and Ohio in general) we're dealing with a zero-sum scenario when it comes to retail and housing. Opening a new mixed development at Southwyck will only serve to damage a place like Southland shopping center or areas along Airport Rd which, of course, then causes those places to become blighted.

Mixed use includes offices. Levis Commons has offices on the second floor of all their retail shops.

I don't agree that a Southwyck lifestyle center would siphon business from Southland or Spring Meadows. All of these shopping disctricts service distinct areas on the southwest side of town, and have unique store mixes. The retail mix envisioned for Southwyck would likely compete more with Fallen Timbers, although with 7-8 miles between them, and again - drawing from different areas & with varied store lineups - I think there's room for both.

Originally Posted by Hey_Hey

In my opinion, Southwych needs to remain green space until which time a true contributor to the Toledo area economy can be built there. I would like to see a business park like Arrowhead to encourage increased economic output. It would be a great site for all of the alternative energy businesses, biotech businesses or whatever else to be located.

The Southwyck property is too small for another Arrowhead Park. Look at a map... Arrowhead has at least ten times as much land area, plus direct access to two interstates. Alternative energy businesses should be located near other industry... wouldn't mesh well with the residential character of the surrounding area.

[Dennuchi46]

And who is going to maintain that green space. That will be the taxpayers.

[AnytimeAnywhere]

Originally Posted by truemuck

Is Woodville still open? I don't know how that mall keeps going.

Yes it is. It has its three anchors: Sears, The Andersons, and Elder Beerman. The rest of the mall is mostly vacant.

I heard that the mall management doesn't heat or air condition the building. They let the anchors do that. If you go to one of the anchors, you'll see the doors are mostly closed so they aren't footing the bill. The ceiling leaks in some places too.

Jeep used to store their vehicles at the Woodville mall at one time. They also stored vehicles at the old Northtown mall too.

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by Dennuchi46

And who is going to maintain that green space. That will be the taxpayers.

I'm guessing you went to a tea party last week. Oh noes, my taxes went up 50 cents to build a park!!

Green areas are a positive for a town, it gives a sense of community and provides public space.