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I don't know if Ford is a xenophobe or a bigot, but judging from many of his on-the-record statements, he nonetheless doesn't fit my mould of what an inclusive mayor of a diverse big city should be.
You're free not to support him, so what's the issue?
I think we are actually agreeing without even knowing it. My comment about voters turning against incumbents was not to say Ford won by default, but rather to show that voter anger against the status quo (very similar to the movement in the States) is what pushed him towards victory. The article you linked basically says the same thing. So we agree.
If you meant to make a point about voter anger I think this article would explain it better: ottlib: The Limits of the Politics of Anger
Voter anger may not always leave a positive outcome, but it doesn't always leave a negative result either. By the way, voters turning against incumbents, or "throw the bums out" sentiment isn't just a recent US phenomenon. It's been happening for ages in democratic countries. The fact is, Rob Ford had a very clear and concise campaign which higher levels of government are studying as we speak. In many people's opinion, he fully earned his victory.
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Originally Posted by Cart24
I am in no way defending Smitherman, I am well aware of his transgressions and believe he was probably the worst choice out of the bunch. But last I checked there were other candidates who ran clean campaigns and were much better choices than the two front runners. Also, Smitherman's issues still do not take away from the fact that Ford has made some extremely insensitive comments that should not be made by anyone, let alone the new mayor of a city as diverse as Toronto.
Heh....probably the worst choice? The only other choice besides Ford was Pantalone. Like I said, a decent man, but a continuation of Miller's policies? Sorry, but Toronto resoundingly said no thanks. And seriously, what is really the big deal about calling Asians "Orientals" and saying they work hard? If immigrants truly found him offensive I doubt so many of them would have voted for him. People like Glen Murray who tweeted that Ford voters are voting for bigotry and Heather Mallick's Star column on Wednesday basically calling Toronto voters idiots are more condescending and offensive to me, personally.
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Originally Posted by Cart24
As far as the Globe and Star are concerned, dont even get me started....In my opinion they stopped being considered credible newspapers a long time ago.
We can sure agree on that....so please make sure not to cite the Globe to prove any points against Rob Ford. Heh heh...you had to see that coming.
So you don't believe in freedom of speech then? So what if he hurt someone's feelings? The world is full of that sort of thing and when we grow up, we're supposed to develop thicker skins to deal with that sort of thing. Slander or libel are separate issues from that and should be dealt with through legal channels but, unfortunately, when someone says something that's not deemed politically correct, too many people would rather run to the courts and say, "He hurt my feelings! Fine him and throw him in jail!"
Just as he has the Freedom to say those things, people also have the Freedom to disagree with everything he said. So yes I do believe in Freedom of Speech, he has the Freedom to make Bigoted statements and I have the right to call him a bigot if I choose to.
If you meant to make a point about voter anger I think this article would explain it better: ottlib: The Limits of the Politics of Anger
Voter anger may not always leave a positive outcome, but it doesn't always leave a negative result either. By the way, voters turning against incumbents, or "throw the bums out" sentiment isn't just a recent US phenomenon. It's been happening for ages in democratic countries. The fact is, Rob Ford had a very clear and concise campaign which higher levels of government are studying as we speak. In many people's opinion, he fully earned his victory.
I am aware of this not being a recently developing movement, but just thought it was an interesting parallel to draw on. But yes you still have to run an effective campaign to tap into that anger, and typically Politics is less about the candidate's qualifications and more about who runs the best campaign.
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Heh....probably the worst choice? The only other choice besides Ford was Pantalone. Like I said, a decent man, but a continuation of Miller's policies? Sorry, but Toronto resoundingly said no thanks. And seriously, what is really the big deal about calling Asians "Orientals" and saying they work hard? If immigrants truly found him offensive I doubt so many of them would have voted for him. People like Glen Murray who tweeted that Ford voters are voting for bigotry and Heather Mallick's Star column on Wednesday basically calling Toronto voters idiots are more condescending and offensive to me, personally.
While "Joey Pants" was the only candidate to remain in the race up until the end, there were other choices from the beginning that deserved more attention from the voters.
Um, I think you need to speak to some of your Asian friends about the term Oriental. First of all it is inaccurate (The Orient originally covered the Middle East as well); It was a term used by westerners to degrade newcomers from Asia, basically calling them objects and placing them at a level lower than a human being. Do some research on the origin of the word. So again I ask, why would you want someone this ignorant as your mayor?
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We can sure agree on that....so please make sure not to cite the Globe to prove any points against Rob Ford. Heh heh...you had to see that coming.
You're free not to support him, so what's the issue?
I never complained that people were being forced to support him.
We are debating the merits of whether or not he is an appropriate choice as mayor of the country's largest and most diverse city, and I am just stating my views on that.
Um, I think you need to speak to some of your Asian friends about the term Oriental. First of all it is inaccurate (The Orient originally covered the Middle East as well); It was a term used by westerners to degrade newcomers from Asia, basically calling them objects and placing them at a level lower than a human being. Do some research on the origin of the word. So again I ask, why would you want someone this ignorant as your mayor?
Oh please, "oriental" is pretty much just an outdated term, not a racial slur. And no, it's not a great idea to generalize any ethnic group, either in a positive or negative way, but you have to admit even the best of us can do it at times in public or privately. Let's just collectively roll our eyes at Rob, give him a little slap on the head and move on.
Oh please, "oriental" is pretty much just an outdated term, not a racial slur. And no, it's not a great idea to generalize any ethnic group, either in a positive or negative way, but you have to admit even the best of us can do it at times in public or privately. Let's just collectively roll our eyes at Rob, give him a little slap on the head and move on.
From our conversations in the past I think it is safe to assume you are not Asian and neither am I. So with that in mind neither of us has the right to say that people from Asia are not entitled to find the term Oriental offensive, not just outdated.
And yes while all of us can easily fall victim to making assumptions and generalizations, most of us cannot express this ignorance at our place of employment, which Rob Ford did. If you or I did so we would most likely be disciplined or terminated....but Rob Ford not only kept his job, he was eventually elected mayor of the countries largest city. There is something severely wrong with that.
Just as he has the Freedom to say those things, people also have the Freedom to disagree with everything he said. So yes I do believe in Freedom of Speech, he has the Freedom to make Bigoted statements and I have the right to call him a bigot if I choose to.
No, you stated, "Ford has made some extremely insensitive comments that should not be made by anyone".
That's a blanket statement that indicates to me that you, like most leftists, preach tolerance, yet are rabidly intolerant of any opinion that contravenes yours.
From our conversations in the past I think it is safe to assume you are not Asian and neither am I. So with that in mind neither of us has the right to say that people from Asia are not entitled to find the term Oriental offensive, not just outdated.
And yes while all of us can easily fall victim to making assumptions and generalizations, most of us cannot express this ignorance at our place of employment, which Rob Ford did. If you or I did so we would most likely be disciplined or terminated....but Rob Ford not only kept his job, he was eventually elected mayor of the countries largest city. There is something severely wrong with that.
So you will sit as arbiter and say that most people from the far east (the Orient) do find the term offensive. That sounds to me like you're the one making assumptions and generalizations. I have several associates who have oriental ancestry and they see no problem with the term. Actually, some of them object to the term "Asian", since Asia spans territory from the Ural Mountains to the Pacific and from the Arctic to the Indian Oceans.
As for your edict that there's something severely wrong with the people voting in someone with whom you disagree, I say that the days of Toronto being a bastion of failed leftist ideology is over. Get used to it, because the majority are tired of it.
No, you stated, "Ford has made some extremely insensitive comments that should not be made by anyone".
That is indeed what Cart said. The thing is, you seem to have interpreted this to mean "What Ford said should be illegal", in which case your accusation that s/he "doesn't believe in freedom of speech" would hold water. However, Cart simply said that publicly saying such things was wrong, not that Ford should be censored for it. Censured, yes, but not censored.
There are plenty of things that people consider wrong but wouldn't advocate banning it. For instance, adultery -- I suspect that most of us here would consider cheating on your partner to be morally reprehensible, but few of us would suggest that you should go to jail for it. Many people have similar views about other issues -- drug use, abortion, eating meat, or what have you. But to hold such views requires nuance, and perhaps you don't do nuance.
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The only other choice besides Ford was Pantalone. Like I said, a decent man, but a continuation of Miller's policies? Sorry, but Toronto resoundingly said no thanks. And seriously, what is really the big deal about calling Asians "Orientals" and saying they work hard? If immigrants truly found him offensive I doubt so many of them would have voted for him. People like Glen Murray who tweeted that Ford voters are voting for bigotry and Heather Mallick's Star column on Wednesday basically calling Toronto voters idiots are more condescending and offensive to me, personally. 
Heh heh...you had to see that coming.
