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Old 11-26-2012, 08:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticman View Post
Some people have a very bizarre notion as to what constitutes "suburban". Just North of Yorkville is suburban? Just East of Sherbourne? Pure malarky. Toronto is "urban" well past high park to the West (all the way to Port Credit if you stay along the lakeshore), to Victoria Park Ave to the East and at least to Lawrence Ave to the North. About half of the city's 2.6 million people live in old, pre-war urban areas.
You consider an entire area hinged on one commercial street with stores and restaurants, 3 minutes walking distance away from which are nothing but two story single family houses "urban", I can only say you set the bar too low.

Victoria Park Ave all the way up to Lawrence? Oh, dear. Nothing east of the Don River has anything to do with the word "Urbanity".

High Park? What's more suburban than High Park? It reminds me of the Desperate Housewives scene.

I guess the difference between you and me is that Toronto is probably the biggest and most vibrant city you ever lived in, while it is the smallest and quietest city I have lived in.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:19 AM
 
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High Park? What's more suburban than High Park? It reminds me of the Desperate Housewives scene.

At times you have very strong arguments, but this is like dropping a turd in the punch bowl.

High Park is still part of the City of Toronto with the TTC at its doorstep. It's definitely more residential, but not suburban by any stretch of the imagination. High Park and Desperate Housewives is a very strange and cartoonish comparison. Maybe DH and Mississauga or Oakville?
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:53 AM
 
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Completely absurd. High Park is urban plain and simple. It's an urban park with the TTC right outside it, and fairly dense residential development. If that's suburban, then what is Oakville or Burlington - boonies?

Also, parts of Mississauga especially along Hurontario Street and near Square One clearly qualify as urban with high rises and dense development. That being said, development does not have to be particularly dense for a place to be urban. You have to consider the totality of the circumstances including density of development, presence of sidewalks, type of zoning in the area, access to public transportation, development pattern (grid vs. cul-de-sac), types of residential (multi-family vs. single-family), proximity to downtown, and overall character of the neighbourhood.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:22 PM
 
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Is all of Philadelphia outside of Center City suburban? All of Chicago beyond the band of lakefront neighborhoods? South Boston, Roxbury, etc.?

I guess the most run-down sections of Detroit are "suburban" too. Not much bustle there and I'm pretty sure it's mostly single family houses (albeit largely vacant).
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:30 PM
 
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Everything East of the Don River is suburban? The corner of Gerrard and Broadview is about as gritty and urban looking as it gets in Toronto.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:35 PM
 
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Give it up folks. It's clear that "botticelli" is the most cosmopolitan, cultured and educated person in this discussion.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:56 PM
 
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I think there are different variations of urban:

(1) The Manhattan-type where you have rows of brownstones or high rises, no parking except on the street, subway/cabs are the main method of transportation, main strip and side streets packed with amenities, close to lots of commerical businesses
(2) The Queens-type where you have small houses or mid-rises, which have driveways but some don't, small lots, a main strip with amenities, and subway accessible, more residential and quieter

Many Toronto neighborhoods like High Park, Trinity Bellwoods and Midtown fall closer to (2). Not the hyper-urban formats of (1) you will find in Manhattan, Hong Kong, London, etc. but still are still part of the city. So it depends what you define as urban. The further you go up Yonge though, it gradually fades. Yonge & Eg is becoming a much softer (2) IMO. And to me, downtown North York center just feels suburban b/c right off Yonge is virtually all homes with double garages. Mississauga is like a small city with its own city center; but the lifestyle and people who live there are all very suburban.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:16 PM
 
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I think that's a good assessment. Almost every North American city is more (2) than (1). NYC is in a category of its own.

I've said Toronto somewhat resembles Queens (certainly more than any NYC borough), but it's not meant to be some sort of put-down of the city.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Kensington View Post
Give it up folks. It's clear that "botticelli" is the most cosmopolitan, cultured and educated person in this discussion.
I'm just more skeptical of people who trash Toronto too much because there's a hidden agenda. When I lived in Montreal or traveled to different parts of Canada, there were some people who would literally turn around and walk away, make some smug comment, or even get hostile/confrontational when they found out I was from Toronto originally. Some people have a trolling agenda against the city, and I don't think Botticelli (he/she makes *some* good points) is one of them, but my guard is up when people are irrationally critical to the point of being surreal.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticman View Post
Everything East of the Don River is suburban? The corner of Gerrard and Broadview is about as gritty and urban looking as it gets in Toronto.
I have been to that corner many times. It looks exactly like a nondescript corner of a 3rd tier European or Asian city, with some grocery stores, small restaurants and banks. It is not the countryside, but no one would associate that with "urban".

You probably consider anywhere where there are some pedestrians and public transit as "urban". You are entitled to your definition, but in reality, that kind of urbanity is pretty low level and kind of sad. I myself consider that pure suburban features.

Let me give you an example:
Buenos Aires has roughly the same population as Toronto, and it is much much more urban than us. You don't suddenly walk into dead quiet residential low rise neighbourhoods the minute you are outside downtown. It is vibrant everywhere. People walk and shop everywhere.

Recoleta is like our Rosedale, but full of pedestrians, elegant mid rise buildings and boutique stores. Rosedale on the other hand being within walking distance to Yonge/Bloor, is a dead hood nobody ever goes to if not for living there.

Palemo/SOHO is like our North York. They don't have many skyscrapers, but when I walked on multiple streets, they are almost all mixed-use midrise, with restaurants and retail stores on practically every street. While in North York, you feel like in the middle of a typical suburb unless right on Yonge st.

You don't find neighbourhoods like East York or St Clair W/Dupont Bathurst etc which are within a few minutes from the center but somehow looks like you are in a small town with 50K population because all you see are two story houses with a front yard and a garage, and some corner stores.

The kind of urbanity in so-called midtown between St Clair and Eglinton ave is so confined on Yonge st. Do we really call a skinny area stretching 2 blocks on both side of Yonge st a "town" and tout its "vibrancy"?

Maybe you feel so good about Toronto being urban compared with something like Indianapolis or Minneapolis (congrats), but honestly, comparing with most cities in the world with similar population, Toronto's urban feel is much more limited and not impressive whatsoever. 90% of the city's land is semi-suburban.

No, I don't have some sort of agenda, or intentionally try to put down Toronto. I am only being dead honest with Toronto's urbanity and vibrancy that some seem to be so proud of. It is below average if you step outside of the typical "US + Canada" geography.
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