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Old 11-13-2012, 04:08 PM
 
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What are "Northeastern" and "Midwestern" characteristics? For some reason some seem to think "Northeastern" = cosmopolitan, sophisticated, exciting; "Midwestern" = provincial, boring.
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by King of Kensington View Post
What are "Northeastern" and "Midwestern" characteristics? For some reason some seem to think "Northeastern" = cosmopolitan, sophisticated, exciting; "Midwestern" = provincial, boring.
I don't think a lot of Canadians quite understand the difference. But given that I've lived on the East Coast for a couple of years now, let me try to find words that describe the character of each.

The North East or East Coast: traditional, cultured, historical, bit snobby, bit elitist, sophistication, hard working, intelligent, education, social status, more white collar mentality, direct, aggressive, bit neurotic, moody

Midwestern: honest, trusting, more likely not to leave hometown, family-oriented, sports, pragmatic, believe in honest days work, more blue collar mentality, polite, work-life-balance, structured, relaxed, common sense, cooperative, not into glamour, safety and security

Toronto is geographically not on the East Coast and is on the Great Lakes, which is the Midwest. It's hard to label cities exactly but I do not feel Toronto is like the North East of the US (i.e. Boston or NYC) but is more Midwestern. Toronto is a very utilitarian city in its design and is very practical in its personality. This is not a bad thing (despite connotations) and has nothing to do with not being cosmopolitan or funky or liberal, both Toronto and Chicago surely exhibit these attributes.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:20 PM
 
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I'm not sure if "sports" really makes a city more "midwestern." Cosmopolitan, intellectual, status-conscious Boston is one of the greatest sports towns around, certainly more than Toronto! It's a big hockey town and there's as many Dunkin' Donuts there as there are Tim Horton's here. Maybe there should be a thread about whether Boston is like a Canadian city.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by King of Kensington View Post
I'm not sure if "sports" really makes a city more "midwestern." Cosmopolitan, intellectual, status-conscious Boston is one of the greatest sports towns around, certainly more than Toronto! It's a big hockey town and there's as many Dunkin' Donuts there as there are Tim Horton's here. Maybe there should be a thread about whether Boston is like a Canadian city.
I knew someone would question me for something after writing so much about a subjective topic...Lol

I'm trying to be high level here to paint a picture and get a point across.

But perhaps sports does need explanation. I wasn't talking about professional sports teams, I was referring more to the role sports plays in American culture, think all American football in high school and college sports. That stuff is big down there.

I live in Boston and trust me, its nothing like Canada.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:18 PM
 
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I agree it's not. A Canadian would feel more "at home" there than in say, Texas, but yeah Canada it ain't. The emphasis on high school and college sports is really more of an American thing. I don't even think it's a big deal in say, Saskatchewan.

The Great Lakes includes both Midwestern and Northeastern states - Lake Ontario isn't in the (US) Midwest at all. But again, I don't think Torontonians would be all that flattered to be compared with the "hybrid" cities of Buffalo and Rochester!

The problem with the term "Midwest" is it encompasses something pretty broad and the Great Lakes and Great Plains regions don't have much in common at all. What does Cleveland have in common with say, Kansas City or Omaha? About as much as Toronto and Winnipeg.

In urban form, Toronto has more in common with other Great Lakes cities. But it's a little far east to be "midwest", it's pretty much directly north of Washington DC. It's directly north of New York State. It's more oriented towards the US Northeast than US Midwest culturally and has more Vic rowhouses in the city center (Philadelphia and Pittsburgh may resemble Toronto's inner city housing stock the most). Overall the most "northeastern" midwestern city.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:24 PM
 
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The term "Midwestern" doesn't really apply to Toronto since it's in an entirely different country with a different sensibility. The fact that it's on the great lakes has doesn't at all mean it's "midwestern" on the this side of the border. Toronto is in the heart of Central Canada, much in the same way that NYC is in the heart of the Northeast U.S, and it's thought of in a similar way among Canadians in the rest of Canada (rude, fast paced, snobby, elitist, etc).
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:52 AM
 
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Would toronto even fit geographically as a mid-western city? I mean Niagara and buffalo are pretty close and last i checked western New York is not considered part of the mid west.

Toronto serves more of the function of a new york city to canada as a whole (on a larger scale even) so it's hard to compare it to the mid-level cities of the mid-west aside from chicago.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by King of Kensington View Post
In urban form, Toronto has more in common with other Great Lakes cities. But it's a little far east to be "midwest", it's pretty much directly north of Washington DC. It's directly north of New York State. It's more oriented towards the US Northeast than US Midwest culturally and has more Vic rowhouses in the city center (Philadelphia and Pittsburgh may resemble Toronto's inner city housing stock the most). Overall the most "northeastern" midwestern city.
Now we are cross comparing countries, so no label is going to fit exactly here but the question is whether Toronto more closely fits the Midwest or East coast. The fact that Toronto is on the Great Lakes but is on a lake that is more east than other Midwest cities does not automatically make Toronto an East Coast city by default, remember we both refer to coke as 'pop' and we are not exactly near the East Coast either. Some housing stock may look similar to Philly and the fact that Toronto is the financial capital of Canada are not reasons that automatically make it into an East Coast city.

I am arguing that Midwest vs. East Coast is more a function of personality and attitude, and you can't judge this my looking at a map. I've outlined what these attributes are previously and believe Torontonians exhibit more Midwestern than East Coast character traits. Now I understand there is bias to want to be associated with NYC but this has nothing to do with things like being international, lively, or being go go, etc. nor does it have anything to do with the rural parts of the Midwest like Indiana. Let's stick with thinking about the urban centres of Toronto, Chicago, Boston and NYC which are all big, cosmospolitan, exciting, and liberal cities. It is an attitude and personality of the people that define a city.

Torontonians value work-life balance more; have a very practical style; are very functional in terms of what we build; have that get the job done but want to enjoy hockey/cottages after over a beer; don't put people into a class system based on whether you went to public or private school; don't judge others based on family lineage; are generally quieter and polite; are not very direct or agressive; are not very showy or into glamour; are not obsessed with social class; are not elitist in attitude in any way; value security as a goal; usually are less transient and don't move out of the city/region; are more laid back and relaxed in lifestyle and perspective; and are more common sense driven versus theortical in thought. These personality traits remind me more of the Midwest rather than the East Coast. And I am from Toronto and lived in NYC and currently Boston and can you from first hand experience that Torontonians do not strongly resemble people in Boston or NYC from an East Coast culture perspective In fact, I'm shocked how little people in Boston and NYC actually know about Toronto so asking them if they consider Toronto to be part of the East Coast culture would illicit a bewildered reaction.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by johnathanc View Post
Now we are cross comparing countries, so no label is going to fit exactly here but the question is whether Toronto more closely fits the Midwest or East coast. The fact that Toronto is on the Great Lakes but is on a lake that is more east than other Midwest cities does not automatically make Toronto an East Coast city by default, remember we both refer to coke as 'pop' and we are not exactly near the East Coast either. Some housing stock may look similar to Philly and the fact that Toronto is the financial capital of Canada are not reasons that automatically make it into an East Coast city.

I am arguing that Midwest vs. East Coast is more a function of personality and attitude, and you can't judge this my looking at a map. I've outlined what these attributes are previously and believe Torontonians exhibit more Midwestern than East Coast character traits. Now I understand there is bias to want to be associated with NYC but this has nothing to do with things like being international, lively, or being go go, etc. nor does it have anything to do with the rural parts of the Midwest like Indiana. Let's stick with thinking about the urban centres of Toronto, Chicago, Boston and NYC which are all big, cosmospolitan, exciting, and liberal cities. It is an attitude and personality of the people that define a city.
Yes, ultimately the difference between Canada/US is greater than Northeast/Midwest and even the South/not-the-South.

I'm very much in agreement that Toronto is more similar to Chicago than Boston and NYC, particularly in terms of history and urban form. And there is a bias that thinks "Midwestern" = dying rust belt cities like Cleveland and Detroit + small-town "middle America" and "Northeast" = progressive, dense, urbane, sophisticated, cosmopolitan, etc. So of course Torontonians want to be "East Coast."

On the other hand, it's kind of problematic to have Toronto in the same "region" as Winnipeg and Fargo! The idea of the "Midwest" is really two essentially different regions. In Canada we have the Prairies as a distinctive region which makes sense. The comparison is a little more difficult because Toronto is a lot more different from Cleveland and Buffalo than say, Vancouver is from Seattle. Toronto-Chicago is probably akin to Calgary-Denver.

But I wouldn't say "East Coast" and "Northeast" are necessarily synonymous either. Ontario's "Northeastern"-ness is more akin to the Mid-Atlantic states rather than New England. Much of New York State and Pennsylvania is pretty removed from "BosWash" - are they partially midwestern? Where is the line? Are Buffalo and Rochester midwestern? How about Syracuse and Utica? Pittsburgh? Could we stretch it to say Lake Champlain is an honorary Great Lake and include Burlington, Vermont? And on the Canadian side, how about Kingston and Ottawa?

Last edited by King of Kensington; 11-14-2012 at 01:27 PM..
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:25 PM
 
1,217 posts, read 2,585,987 times
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Originally Posted by King of Kensington View Post
Yes, ultimately the difference between Canada/US is greater than Northeast/Midwest and even the South/not-the-South.

I'm very much in agreement that Toronto is more similar to Chicago than Boston and NYC, particularly in terms of history and urban form. And there is a bias that thinks "Midwestern" = dying rust belt cities like Cleveland and Detroit + small-town "middle America" and "Northeast" = progressive, dense, urbane, sophisticated, cosmopolitan, etc. So of course Torontonians want to be "East Coast."

On the other hand, it's kind of problematic to have Toronto in the same "region" as Winnipeg and Fargo! The idea of the "Midwest" is really two essentially different regions. In Canada we have the Prairies as a distinctive region which makes sense. The comparison is a little more difficult because Toronto is a lot more different from Cleveland and Buffalo than say, Vancouver is from Seattle. Toronto-Chicago is probably akin to Calgary-Denver.

But I wouldn't say "East Coast" and "Northeast" are necessarily synonymous either. Ontario's "Northeastern"-ness is more akin to the Mid-Atlantic states rather than New England. Much of New York State and Pennsylvania is pretty removed from "BosWash" - are they partially midwestern? Where is the line? Are Buffalo and Rochester midwestern? How about Syracuse and Utica? Pittsburgh? Could we stretch it to say Lake Champlain is an honorary Great Lake and include Burlington, Vermont? And on the Canadian side, how about Kingston and Ottawa?
I'm only familar with Midwest and East Coast cultures in the US as that is how they are referred to. I'm not sure about the North East and don't know if there is a line, I can only speculate that it starts to blur and gradually change as you move from the Midwest to the East Coast. I also don't think the distinctions are as sharp between Midwest and East Coast when you get into the big cities like Toronto, Chicago, NYC, and Boston compared to smaller cities. But there are still differences that exist. Chicago people are less status-concious, more laid back, and are less stuffy than Boston/NYC. And Torontonians are more similar to Chicago than Boston/NYC in this respect. The centre-of-the-universe attitude that spawns from being the business capital of capital has hard-wired many to think Toronto is like the East Coast because we play the part of NY in Canada but if one digs deeper, Toronto is really more like (not exactly like) the Midwest than the East Coast in terms of attitude, lifestlye, and values.

But I do hear what you are saying regarding Toronto not being like other smaller Midwestern cities. I am not claiming that Toronto is a true Midwestern city but I am simply saying that it exhibits a personality more similar to the US Midwest than it does to the US East Coast. Like you described, we are in some no mans zone that is arguably on the east end of the Midwest, across the lake is the west end of the North East region of the US, but we are still not close to the East Coast either. It makes sense that we share some traits from the Midwest and perhaps even the North East, which again I speculate is a transitional area between the Midwest and East Coast.
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