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Old 07-21-2012, 08:10 AM
 
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I'm wondering if it is also a matter of Toronto just not being informed about crime trends that may contribute to these crime and/or within specific communities. For instance, drugs like Bath Salts and Water have become issues in terms of crimes here in the States. I wonder if people are even aware of such things in Toronto? I've seen both play a part in crime in my area and I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case in Toronto too. Also, I've always wondered how a people that don't own any gun manufacturers seem to get easy access to illegal guns? In my line of work, I've even heard of people coming into these communities and using the guns as collateral in getting drugs or even just selling them. There's also been people transporting them from places with more lax guns laws. So, this can be very complex. I think it is an interesting debate and is different than what you may see in the States due to different histories, but there are many similarities as well.http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s...aspx?id=657593

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 07-21-2012 at 08:16 AM.. Reason: Websites not posted properly
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:17 AM
 
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Ask yourself this. Would you rather live with the occasional occurance of a mass shooting or the daily violence that thugs bring to city streets? I'm pretty sure you, me and most everyone you ask would take the former over the latter. And why is that? Because these kinds of mass killings don't happen very often and even when you add up all the deaths from these incidents, they only number in the dozens.
To me, it is pretty much the same. My point was that one of the most important statistics is the one you have to work with. It is still the same result whether I get shot by the occasional mass shooter or get it from the daily violent street thugs.

Quote:
Contrast this to Chicago alone where there have already been several weekends this year where 12 or close to that number have been killed and dozens injured in black violence in various incidents, yet it receives only a fraction of the news coverage that this theatre shooting has received. Also there's been like 250+ murders in Chicago mostly blacks killed by other blacks.
Of course this doesn't get national attention. Alot of people view it was something not worth mention. I think some people really don't care if Blacks kill one another.

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The point is the statistics ARE RIGHT. Blacks ARE more likely to die by violence than anyone else and they're also more likely to commit interracial crime than anyone else.
In the GENERAL sense, yes. In the INDIVIDUAL sense, this is what I am talking about. I am talking about an individual's chance based on their lifestyle and their attitude. On paper, Blacks are more likely to die. However, it is so in a general sense.

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That's great that you've made a life for yourself, but unfortunately you're the except to the rule. If more blacks were like you then no one would be raising the issue of black crime or how as a black male you're much more likely to be involved in crime and/or killed.
Actually, I know more Black people who were raised properly than you think. I don't see myself as the exception. I'm in a university and most Blacks I see obvious did make a life for themselves.

Quote:
I understand that the majority of blacks in Toronto are non-violent which is great. But even if as you say 99% of an estimated 352,000 blacks living in the city are peaceful, that still leaves about 3,500 criminals on the streets of Toronto. I personally believe the number is higher, but even going by this figure, 3,500 is a HECK OF ALOT OF THUGS on the streets. And that's certainly 3,500 more thugs than the rest of the 4.7 million non-blacks living in Toronto/GTA are producing. So no matter how you cut it, WAY MORE blacks are committing crime and murder than everyone else in Toronto COMBINED. Do you not see a problem with this??

This is why cops SHOULD put more resources towards fighting crime in black communities and if that includes some 'racial profiling' then so be it. Yes it DOES SUCK for those blacks who aren't criminals and it doesn't stop all crime, but if young black males are committing most of the crime and murder here, doesn't it make sense to target that group of people for more scrutiny?
Even if most of the crimes being committed are by young Black males, it still doesn't make sense to me. This is why. At the end of the day, I have ME to look after. I'm not a criminal and I don't see any reason to be viewed as one. If the vast majority of Blacks are not committing crimes, and yet the Black crime rate is high, then this is proving racial profiling isn't working. Most of the persons who are committing crimes aren't getting caught. Of course Black people are going to be upset. I definitely would be upset. I would feel violated because you are basically presuming that I'm guilty by association. What does it do for me as an individual?

I feel like the police have one arm tied behind their backs when dealing with black crime. On the one hand after this latest mass shooting, blacks are marching and calling for police and the city to do more to stop their kids from dying. Fine. Police go and do it. Check out more black males if they look suspicious and do some raids etc.

Then at some point blacks will start saying 'Why are cops always targeting us? We did nothing wrong and aren't criminals. This is racist!' and then police have to come out and defend themselves that their force is racist against blacks.

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So I wonder what do blacks REALLY WANT? Are they serious about wanting to stop crime or not? It seems to me that they want crime and killings to stop, yet aren't willing to help much, won't raise their kids properly and also take short term pain for long term gain and the result is NOTHING IS EVER FIXED for long.
I know what I personally want. I want to be able to live like anyone else. I want to live in a peaceful place, and not worry about being profiled by the police. If I'm going to be profiled by the police because of my race, it makes me think "Why should I even live here? If I wanted this I would have committed crime". I've been in the car with my own father when he was pulled over by the police out of "suspicion". That wasted our time and made our life a little bit harder.

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If blacks in Toronto TRULY wanted crime to end and their kids to die less often, then they would co-operate with police as much as possible if they know anything about any crimes. They would also TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR RAISING THEIR KIDS PROPERLY and also make sure their kids don't get out of line and discipling them when they do. And they WOULD NOT MIND 'racial profiliing' for a while if it meant positive results in the longterm. Blacks and the rest of the people of Toronto can't continually cry racism against blacks if they want the police to do their job right. Let them target black communities and get tough with them and the people of these communities need to speak up even if it means they become snitches.
I agree with raising one's children better, I agree with being a snitch. However, I will mind if I become a target for racial profiling. I look at it like this. I don't commit crimes, so why should I be perceived as such. If I don't know who the criminals are, why should I suffer? If I know who the criminals are, I will gladly rat them out. If a healthy relationship with the police is wanted, it has to start with building trust with the police. Racial profiling isn't going to build a relationship of trust. I look at it this way. Blacks have pretty much been harassed and abused by the police for years, not just 10 or 20, but for over 100 years. Of course as a Black man, I'm going to be upset, because for me, it is basically a throwback to the old days.

And another thing to point out is this. Alot of Black people who want a safer environment for themselves and their children often move to safer neighborhoods so they don't have to deal with that kind of environment. It's called voting with your feet. Many Black people do that.

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Bottom line is that things usually get worse before they get better and if cops don't get help from the communities and aren't allowed to go all in, then again nothing gets solved in the longterm and this is the result: A relatively low number of total murders for a city of its size, but a disproptionate number of those murders (both victims and suspects) involving blacks.

And also YET ANOTHER shooting tonight where a man was shot in the head.

Man shot in head near Jane and Finch | Toronto

That's 4 dead and dozens wounded over 5 days in four separate incidents ALL involving the same group of people. Still think targeting a specific group of people is wrong?
I still think targeting people because of their race is a bad idea, especially if most of the persons being pulled over aren't involved in crime.
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:49 AM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,386,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
To me, it is pretty much the same. My point was that one of the most important statistics is the one you have to work with. It is still the same result whether I get shot by the occasional mass shooter or get it from the daily violent street thugs.



Of course this doesn't get national attention. Alot of people view it was something not worth mention. I think some people really don't care if Blacks kill one another.



In the GENERAL sense, yes. In the INDIVIDUAL sense, this is what I am talking about. I am talking about an individual's chance based on their lifestyle and their attitude. On paper, Blacks are more likely to die. However, it is so in a general sense.



Actually, I know more Black people who were raised properly than you think. I don't see myself as the exception. I'm in a university and most Blacks I see obvious did make a life for themselves.



Even if most of the crimes being committed are by young Black males, it still doesn't make sense to me. This is why. At the end of the day, I have ME to look after. I'm not a criminal and I don't see any reason to be viewed as one. If the vast majority of Blacks are not committing crimes, and yet the Black crime rate is high, then this is proving racial profiling isn't working. Most of the persons who are committing crimes aren't getting caught. Of course Black people are going to be upset. I definitely would be upset. I would feel violated because you are basically presuming that I'm guilty by association. What does it do for me as an individual?

I feel like the police have one arm tied behind their backs when dealing with black crime. On the one hand after this latest mass shooting, blacks are marching and calling for police and the city to do more to stop their kids from dying. Fine. Police go and do it. Check out more black males if they look suspicious and do some raids etc.

Then at some point blacks will start saying 'Why are cops always targeting us? We did nothing wrong and aren't criminals. This is racist!' and then police have to come out and defend themselves that their force is racist against blacks.



I know what I personally want. I want to be able to live like anyone else. I want to live in a peaceful place, and not worry about being profiled by the police. If I'm going to be profiled by the police because of my race, it makes me think "Why should I even live here? If I wanted this I would have committed crime". I've been in the car with my own father when he was pulled over by the police out of "suspicion". That wasted our time and made our life a little bit harder.



I agree with raising one's children better, I agree with being a snitch. However, I will mind if I become a target for racial profiling. I look at it like this. I don't commit crimes, so why should I be perceived as such. If I don't know who the criminals are, why should I suffer? If I know who the criminals are, I will gladly rat them out. If a healthy relationship with the police is wanted, it has to start with building trust with the police. Racial profiling isn't going to build a relationship of trust. I look at it this way. Blacks have pretty much been harassed and abused by the police for years, not just 10 or 20, but for over 100 years. Of course as a Black man, I'm going to be upset, because for me, it is basically a throwback to the old days.

And another thing to point out is this. Alot of Black people who want a safer environment for themselves and their children often move to safer neighborhoods so they don't have to deal with that kind of environment. It's called voting with your feet. Many Black people do that.



I still think targeting people because of their race is a bad idea, especially if most of the persons being pulled over aren't involved in crime.
Your points are all valid ones but once again negate completely the postion offered by other posters.

You don't like profiling which everyone understands but your point of your father and yourself being pulled over and questioned making your life a little bit harder should have been offset by "I asked my dad why and his repsonse was: because a number of our race are causing most of the violent crime and we have to tolerate being inconvenienced because of THEM, not the police or profiling".

A civil society can enjoy all of the fruits of reasonable law enforcement AFTER it has gained civility! If where you're living is essentially a war zone then suck it up ackowledge that fact and allow things like curfews, profiled stops, the temorary loss of rights and liberties UNTIL you've regained civility in the neighbourhood.

When the FLQ were bombing mailboxes and eventually kidnapped and killed two people, which could arguably be prosthetized to be of less impact than these recent events in Toronto; what was the result? The war measures act was enacted and soldiers were suddenly standing on sidewalks outside homes demanding to see identification from EVERYONE, milkman, postman, doctors, lawyers, and I would submit to you NO ONE was screaming racism as they were predominantly WHITE.

Complaints were many and loud but people got the message; for a society to enjoy their freedoms they first have to attain them and whatever steps taken to REGAIN civility should be endorsed not stymied.

The Toronto community in question has lost all semblance of freedom and civility and should be more than willing to tolerate, even support whatever intrusions on their daily lives until some resemblance to mutal respect for each other is regained, instead we have words like racism, discrimination, profiling cluttering up the news.

Were I an official in that city I'd stick my face in theirs and state: "you've had it your way for too long now, preaching victimization to your youth and essentially programming them to become thugs but you have now reached a crossroads; either you suck-it-up and get engaged or you continue sit back and demand help comes to you only with your approval, in which case the status-quo will remain."

The rest of the world did not cause this problem to occur only within your neighbourhood; look inward folks, get angry with yourselves, accept responsibility then take some action instead of demanding others clean up the mess YOU created, while wearing kid-gloves in doing so.

I hope you all understand my response use of the words you, your, you're are all general in nature and not directed to any individual.
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:04 AM
 
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You don't like profiling which everyone understands but your point of your father and yourself being pulled over and questioned making your life a little bit harder should have been offset by "I asked my dad why and his repsonse was: because a number of our race are causing most of the violent crime and we have to tolerate being inconvenienced because of THEM not the police or profiling".

A civil society can enjoy all of the fruits of reasonable law enforcement AFTER it has gained civility! If where you're living is essentially a war zone then suck it up ackowledge that fact and allow things like curfews, profiled stops, the temorary loss of rights and liberties UNTIL you've regained civility in the neighbourhood.
The thing is, Blacks have been subjected to adverse treatment by the police even before Blacks were causing severe problems with crime. This has gone on before, and this is a historical problem.

And I don't live in a war zone kind of place. Neither does my father. We were not pulled over in a violent area. We got pulled over in a relatively rural area. Maybe it's just me, but if my neighborhood ever got that bad, and I had the money, I would leave and live somewhere else. And what about Black people who DON'T live in violent neighborhoods?

Quote:
When the FLQ were bombing mailboxes and eventually kidnapped and killed two people, which could arguably be prosthetized to be of less impact than these recent events in Toronto; what was the result? The war measures act was enacted and soldiers were suddenly standing on sidewalks outside homes demanding to see identification from EVERYONE, milkman, postman, doctors, lawyers, and I would submit to you NO ONE was screaming racism as they were all WHITE.
This is also a different situation. I think Blacks complain because racial profiling as been a historical problem.
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
The thing is, Blacks have been subjected to adverse treatment by the police even before Blacks were causing severe problems with crime. This has gone on before, and this is a historical problem.

And I don't live in a war zone kind of place. Neither does my father. We were not pulled over in a violent area. We got pulled over in a relatively rural area. Maybe it's just me, but if my neighborhood ever got that bad, and I had the money, I would leave and live somewhere else. And what about Black people who DON'T live in violent neighborhoods?



This is also a different situation. I think Blacks complain because racial profiling as been a historical problem.
Great points and I think the difference in social realties, no matter how much we like to think everything is "equal" now, is something that people have to think about and put themselves in.
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Great points and I think the difference in social realties, no matter how much we like to think everything is "equal" now, is something that people have to think about and put themselves in.
Many people aren't realizing the differences in social realities, or the historical differences, there has never been a necessity for some people to do this.
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:46 PM
 
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Some of the work creating a safe community needs to be done by the COMMUNITY and the families living in it.

One of the fatality victims was a 14 yr old girl. Maybe parents should consider curfews for teenagers like they had in the olden days.

Why should any teenager (especially a girl) be out on the streets past 10 pm in a high-crime area?

Everyone in the community knows who is in the gangs. It's there own sons. Why not start a neighbourhood watch program and call the police each and every time known gang members are seen hanging out on a street corner dealing drugs. Residents have a far better chance of seeing criminal activity than even the most vigilant policing. Better these gang members get profiled and frisked than an innocent black university student who has no gang affiliation whatsoever.

Why don't parents of gang members search their bedrooms each and every day for weapons and drugs? If they suspect their son of being in a gang, why don't they set a curfew, home by daylight each day and if the kid can't stick with it, kick them out.

Instead, I remember that when the 3 Galloway boys gang members were being tried for murder, one of their mothers lied and provided an alibi for her son in an attempt to save him from justice.

Instead of asking the police to intervene more, why aren't these families intervening more with their own sons?
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:20 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
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Originally Posted by ellemint View Post
why aren't these families intervening more with their own sons?
That would require energy, while blaming whitey is an easy, tried-and-true method for never taking responsibility.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:53 AM
 
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The thing is, this is a tragedy and things like this can be solved by

A) Informing on criminals. If it makes a person a snitch, than so be it. Yes, this is quite difficult. I understand there is a certain fear that comes with ratting out someone. I understand there is a severe risk involved. However, if one doesn't rat out that criminal, that criminal will go on to do even more harm, terrorizing the community more. I also understand that there is a very certain trepidation to send a Black person into the justice system, considering the history of racism and bias. I know where it comes from.

B) Forging a better relationship between the police and the community. This goes both ways. Many people have historically felt abused by the police, and therefore, do not trust them. Many police officers view the police in nothing short of a negative light, so there is no trust there either.

C) The parents need to be involved. The parents need to make sure their children are staying out of gangs. The neighbors should get involved to, forging together. My professor said it takes two parents to raise a child. An African proverb says it takes a village. I say it takes ALL of that to raise the children. It takes the parents making sure their children are not acting like fools. It takes the neighbors ratting out a kid who is stealing bicycles or doing something else really stupid.

This isn't going to be easy nothing ever is. However, it can be done. I offer this over racial profiling. Racial profiling isn't working, and it isn't fair to Black people who are law abiding and don't cause problems.
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:34 AM
 
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I watched something in the news today about police officers in Anaheim,CA shooting at people, not just suspects, but women and children. If you're chasing after a suspect, you do not shoot at people if they are not rioting. After the shooting occurred, a riot almost occurred. Not all police officers do this. This is something everyone needs to know. However, when police officers do this, it doesn't help their image. It doesn't help at all. There needs to be a better relationship between civilians and the police. It starts at the community level. Policemen do not need to be doing crap such as what was done in Anaheim. Civilians need to cooperate with the police better. Both parties need to carry their weight in making cities safer.
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