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When was the last time you went to tour C.W. Jeffreys Collegiate? Toronto has it's rough areas too.
Yes -- the bigger the country, the bigger the city, the bigger the county, etc....the more diversity - so yes there are some rougher schools in the USA BUT.........and this is the but that counts.
For most of us -- we don't live in or will ever consider living in the area those schools support. Before I left Canada, I lived in the Town of Milton, population was 30,000. My kids went to an elementary school -- JK-Grade 8 only 350. people. We have now lived in two counties in the greater Atlanta area and now live near Charleston SC. I can assure you that the schools we had access to were just as good as any of the schools available to Canadians. If it makes you feel better to compare the suburban schools in Toronto to the inner city schools of Ohio -- go ahead. That's like comparing Oakville to Malton.
This OP would most likely live in suburban Atlanta not the inner city. He will have access to some of the best schools in the country (especially if he moves to East Cobb area). I live in ones of the worst counties as far as school rankings in South Carolina but my son goes to one of the best high schools in the south. It is a phenomenal school with a music program that few suburban Ontario schools could match. By the time he graduates he will have taken engineering courses, and many other university courses. Yes there are some schools in the county I would not send my son to but I wouldn't live in those areas anyways. I am fortunate enough to have choices -- as I would suspect most of us here do.
^ The US has some great schools, never denied that. I am only arguing overall stats which state that OVERALL the school system in Canada generates a more even/equal distribution of funds thus ensuring each student will receive a similar education regardless of the area. This is not the same in the US. I am glad you have choices to send your children to a good school, that's all that matters in the end. But some kids aren't so lucky, sad to say.
And btw... Milton now has 80,000 people! It's Canada's fastest growing city at the moment
(disclaimer: did not read all previous posts so may repeat things)
I believe this "equal distribution of funds' thing is a bit of a sham, really. In general, the more upscale the neighborhood, the more the school has: more equipment, more computers, more smartboards, newer playgrounds, better teachers...
However, the same holds true in the US, and there you pay thru the nose for good education through your property taxes.
And the "free healthcare" bit is also a sham...not only do you pay for it through your taxes and have to pay out-of-pocket for medications unless you have coverage (at jacked-up prices...I paid $30 for my last antibiotic script in Ontario and $4 here!)
Income taxes and other taxes (on goods and services) are higher in Canada, so you often (not always) pay more for housing, food, clothing, entertainment, travel...it can add up. We used to live in Ontario and now live in South Jersey, one of the most expensive areas to live in the US, and overall we are not paying a heck of a lot more to live, including our health insurance. And for that we get almost no snow and live an hour from the shore!
I am an ex-pat from the Greater Toronto Area. We moved to the Atlanta area in 1997. At that time our children were 2 weeks old, 7 and 9. We lived there for 13 years. Two years ago we moved to Charleston, SC> I have to add that Toronto is one of my fave cities. I LOVE it but hate winter!!!!
When we moved in 1997 what we noticed was how inexpensive everything, especially housing. When we first moved, we did notice a huge difference in our take home pay that might make up for some of the increased health insurance costs. We have decent insurance and have to pay some out of pocket expenses over the last 15 years but nothing outrageous. Now if something happens to one of us -- who knows what insurance will or will not cover. That's the problem here. You never know. Insurance companies rule the health care industry and even if you are with a great company with a great plan, a major illness can set you back considerably.
When I first moved to the USA I was struck by the differences in schools, even within the same school district. It is definitely based on socio-economic factors. It is true that downtown Toronto can provide good schools, while you would be hard pressed to want to send your child to an Atlanta inner city school but that doesn't matter. You wouldn't want to live down Atlanta anyways. AND...honestly -- I'm not so sure I'd jump at the chance to send my child to a school in Regent park -- I know sounds snooty.
We are living and have lived in southern states that rank in the bottom five for education in the USA. Having said that, my three boys have gone to AMAZING schools. Most likely wherever you want to live, the schools will be more than sufficient. Most of the time the schools you want to stay away from are in areas you want to stay away from.
While some funding may come from the province, the majority of funding for schools in Ontario comes from your municipal taxes.. Look at your property bill -- the majority of the cost is school board costs that are regional. They represent the largest portion of your municipality tax bill. It is the same here. Having lived in two different areas in the Atlanta area and moving to Charleston SC, it isn't difficult at all to find the better school districts. It is no different than finding the better community to live in. Most likely if a community is within your lifestyle and budget, the school will be a good one. It takes as much research to find the good school districts as it does to find the right place to live back in the Toronto area. It's not a big deal.
College is way more expensive here in the USA from what I have gathered. I have two kids at Georgia Tech and even with in state tuition, it costs way more than my family in university in Canada. There are more opportunities for scholarships in the USA than in Canada.
Cost of living -- no comparison. No matter how times we go 'home' we cannot get over the cost of living in the Greater Toronto area. Yes I know wages are higher, but so are taxes and EVERYTHING else. Property taxes, food, gas, travel, clothing, entertainment, housing, transportation, etc. is so expensive in the Toronto area.
Other pluses in Atlanta -- four hrs to the ocean, six hours to Destin, Orlando. Atlanta is a great airport -- so easy to get in and out of and provides direct flights to most places you would want to go.
I do miss the energy of Toronto. It is such a great cosmopolitan city.
Sorry I can't help you with Minnesota. Hating winter you know that I would not find myself ever considering that options.
You could be happy and make it work in either of the cities you have mentioned. They all have very different lifestyles though
This is the anectodal type of answer I was looking for...
Canadian schools ARE better. End of story. Americans love to be #1 in everything but they must accept that in terms of health care and education the US comes in a distant 2nd to Canada. All my US friends agree that the school system is flawed in the US. We have no bad schools here in Canada (compared to the bad US schools)... every single school in this country are funded EQUALLY. What isn't collected in property taxes is subsidized by the province. That cannot be said for the US. I've traveled all over the US and seen some disgusting downright dangerous schools. I've never seen anything that bad in Canada ever.
get off your high horse... you generalize everything...
No place is a perfect utopia... get out some more.
When someone is talking specific areas, to generalize and say -- Canada has a better school system, is useless information. Again -- I live in the Charleston SC area. Charleston County is not one of the better school districts in the state. We are next to Dorchester II county considered one of the best...on average. All that means is that all the schools in that district are about the same...in Charleston County there are some of the best and some of the worst -- so the average is lower.....The better elementary, middle and high schools are still in the Charleston County system...so it's best not to generalize too much.
^I have friends in the US school system. I don't sit in the Holiday Inn every time I visit the US. My good friend toured me around the schools in Ohio just a couple months ago. I was shocked at the conditions. One county had exceptional schools (very well off area) while literally across the train tracks where people were more poor had horrible schools. I also toured some schools in Florida (I own 3 condos here) and while there were some very nice schools, there were also some disgusting ones. I always talk with locals when I travel plus research always helps as well!
Stop trying to pretend like the school system isn't a problem in the US. Typical American living in never-never-land, in denial about the negatives in their country. Oprah has done a huge special on the US school problem on her show several times, and referenced Canada as a better model. The Economist magazine cites Canada as having one of the best public school system in the world, a model the US should follow. Just because you yourself have had a great experience in a US school does not change reality and stats.
# I don't plan to live in Ohio, and they don't represent the entire country. Ohio is part of the rust belt for 1, so schools may be marginally worse here becuase of a lower tax base. And, also what schools did you visit? Did you talk to some students? I don't think that you can generalize for the entire state or the USA based on your limited analysis.
Also, I am not sending my future kids to a crappy school in Canada or the USA (yes there are bad schools in every city in Canada and the USA); all that matters to me is that my kids can go to a great school that prepares them for higher education. I can get well reviewed schools in every province in Canada and every state in the USA. The question at hand, is which place is cheaper. And, you clearly enjoy the USA, since you invested in three condos here. Why is that? Maybe, becuase Canada real estate is overpriced. With the money I save on real estate, I could send my kids to a top level private school like Pace Academy in Atlanta or Breck in Minneapolis. I would rather invest in my childs education than in Toronto Real Estate.
The only negative in the USA is the healthcare system. Americans take on more risk than Canadians.. but Canadians pay for that luxury by having higher prices for just about everything.
well, consider this, the $500-600K the OP saved in housing cost is probably more than enough for him/her to send her kids to the best private school in Atlanta. So Toronto's public school being better or not is really not that important.
When was the last time you went to tour C.W. Jeffreys Collegiate? Toronto has it's rough areas too.
Yes -- the bigger the country, the bigger the city, the bigger the county, etc....the more diversity - so yes there are some rougher schools in the USA BUT.........and this is the but that counts.
For most of us -- we don't live in or will ever consider living in the area those schools support. Before I left Canada, I lived in the Town of Milton, population was 30,000. My kids went to an elementary school -- JK-Grade 8 only 350. people. We have now lived in two counties in the greater Atlanta area and now live near Charleston SC. I can assure you that the schools we had access to were just as good as any of the schools available to Canadians. If it makes you feel better to compare the suburban schools in Toronto to the inner city schools of Ohio -- go ahead. That's like comparing Oakville to Malton.
This OP would most likely live in suburban Atlanta not the inner city. He will have access to some of the best schools in the country (especially if he moves to East Cobb area). I live in ones of the worst counties as far as school rankings in South Carolina but my son goes to one of the best high schools in the south. It is a phenomenal school with a music program that few suburban Ontario schools could match. By the time he graduates he will have taken engineering courses, and many other university courses. Yes there are some schools in the county I would not send my son to but I wouldn't live in those areas anyways. I am fortunate enough to have choices -- as I would suspect most of us here do.
Yes, that is correct. I would live somewhere in the suburbs of Atlanta (Sandy Springs, Decatur, Marietta, Smyrna, etc.) or the suburbs of Minneapolis (Eden Prairie, Wayzata, Eagan, etc.) if I was living in the USA. In Toronto, given the high price of property I would be living in Richmond Hills, Mississauga, Vaughan, etc. I would not be living in the ghetto neighborhoods of any of these cities, and yes there are ghetto areas in each of these three cities. If you really want to compare, Minneapolis is actually the cleanest and safest of these three. That is my opinion, and I don’t care what the stats say.
I will agree that inner city public schools in the USA have a bad reputation, and deservedly so. These inner-city schools are full of children from unstable low-income families or recent immigrants that need English immersion. I would never send my child to school where he/she is held back by students who don’t have an interest to learn or need remedial courses.
However, the suburban and smaller city public schools in the USA are usually great. I was able to obtain a great education in Minnesota public school that prepared me for college, so I can personally vouch for this. Actually Minnesota gives you a voucher to college after grade 11, called post-secondary education option. I actually went to college in 12th grade for free. Either way, I don't plan to send my children to school in downtown Atlanta, or Minneapolis. I also won’t send them to an inner city school in Toronto, regardless of reputation, because I don’t want to live in a tiny condo or pay $1M+ to live in Leaside, etc.
Just to briefly touch on your question about the costs associated with Labor and Delivery. It really depends on what type of Insurance plan you have.
My wife and I had our daughter almost 2 years ago. We are at the age where many of our Friends are and were also having children around the same time. During a conversation on our last trip to Toronto my wife met with two of her old Uni friends who also had children over the past 2 years. Of the three my wife paid the least for our entire pregnancy and delivery. Both of her friends had to pay to upgrade to a Private Room, so I believe that ran them around $250 to do so. Under our Insurance plan a private room is paid for 100%. Of course this is not even an issue here in Boston because all hospitals in the city (even the "safety net" hospital) have fully private rooms throughout the entire hospital. No one ever shares a room. Otherwise, we paid $15 for our initial visit to our OB/GYN and everything else (All appointments, labor and delivery, private room, 2 night stay for recovery, 3 room service meals for both my wife and myself a day) was paid 100%. Never saw a bill. Heck our Inurance even paid for a Medella Breast Pump 100%.
Of course this is our plan, yours may be different. But check into it because everyone we know here has a similar health plan to us. Do not immediately assume you will pay more because you are in the US.
Last edited by edwardsyzzurphands; 08-30-2012 at 12:27 PM..
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great answer
