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Toronto really doesn't have that large of a Muslim population. The largest immigrant group are south Asians.
And I roll my eyes every time one person speaks on behalf of every other Canadian and tries to depict the country as a bastion of tolerance. Make no mistake, people say many bad things about "multiculturalism" behind closed doors or at the dinner table.
Even the most tolerant people I know squirm when they see a woman in a burqa. That's not diversity, that's not multiculturalism, that's oppression. No country should become so politically correct that they tolerate intolerance.
I went to school where at least 15-20 per cent of the people were Muslim, they were all nice people (of course) but sometimes I got a little uncomfortable with their beliefs. I once saw a facebook post from one of the my classmates expressing the opinion that all Muslim women should wear a hijab to be modest. The fact of the matter is Western society has gone through the dark ages, but the Muslim world hasn't.
Anyways OP, Canada has less "Islamic" problems than Europe. You hear horrible stories from the UK about Muslims expressing hate speech, killing soldiers, and honor killings. That doesn't happen too often in Canada, and when it does, the public is usually outraged.
Toronto is diverse (like most big cities are). I'm sure you will have no trouble fitting in.
EDIT: I have to say OP, you should open your mind a bit more though. There are a lot of Muslim people who are not so overzealous about their religion. There's a girl in my class from Turkey and I was shocked when I found out she was Muslim because she drinks, parties, dresses freely, etc. There are a lot of people like that.
Toronto really doesn't have that large of a Muslim population. The largest immigrant group are south Asians.
And I roll my eyes every time one person speaks on behalf of every other Canadian and tries to depict the country as a bastion of tolerance. Make no mistake, people say many bad things about "multiculturalism" behind closed doors or at the dinner table.
Even the most tolerant people I know squirm when they see a woman in a burqa. That's not diversity, that's not multiculturalism, that's oppression. No country should become so politically correct that they tolerate intolerance.
I went to school where at least 15-20 per cent of the people were Muslim, they were all nice people (of course) but sometimes I got a little uncomfortable with their beliefs. I once saw a facebook post from one of the my classmates expressing the opinion that all Muslim women should wear a hijab to be modest. The fact of the matter is Western society has gone through the dark ages, but the Muslim world hasn't.
Anyways OP, Canada has less "Islamic" problems than Europe. You hear horrible stories from the UK about Muslims expressing hate speech, killing soldiers, and honor killings. That doesn't happen too often in Canada, and when it does, the public is usually outraged.
Toronto is diverse (like most big cities are). I'm sure you will have no trouble fitting in.
Speechless. You couldn't have said it better. I gave you rep and wish I could give you 500 more.
Make no mistake, people say many bad things about "multiculturalism" behind closed doors or at the dinner table.
I think it's normal for people to feel more comfortable around people who share their own beliefs and values. There is always an amount of friction generated when differing groups are brought together, but it's how we react to that friction that makes the difference.
When two dogs come together they always approach cautiously until they can sniff the other one out. Sometimes there is a quick snap of the jaws due to fear and apprehension, other times there is relaxed play, and sometimes there is presentation for mounting. Same with people.
Even though people here might grumble under their breath or talk behind closed doors about other groups, in general I don't think any hateful or bigoted behaviour or comments are tolerated in public. Most would find it unpleasant and distasteful, even if deep down inside they might agree or have their own difficulties. And most people try to get along, even if they are only putting on a face.
As generations continue to integrate this friction will eventually pass and be less of an issue. But there is no doubt that the comments our grandparents made are rarely heard among the younger generations today, despite their ethnic or cultural backgrounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool85
Even the most tolerant people I know squirm when they see a woman in a burqa. That's not diversity, that's not multiculturalism, that's oppression. No country should become so politically correct that they tolerate intolerance.
I've never understood why people come to this country to continue with oppressive cultural tenets. Like that father who murdered his own daughters for some crazy perceived "sins". Why come to a country that flies in the face of everything you believe in? What is the draw, if the values are so offensive and the lifestyles so contradictory to your worldview, that you would murder your own children for emulating them? Why not just stay put in a society that better reflects who you are as a person?
I guess I've always assumed people are coming here for a better life, but sometimes I'm not so sure.
Even the most tolerant people I know squirm when they see a woman in a burqa. That's not diversity, that's not multiculturalism, that's oppression. No country should become so politically correct that they tolerate intolerance.
well said.
I have no problem with banning burqa at all. It is NOT a freedom. It is more like banning peeing in public.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool85
There are a lot of Muslim people who are not so overzealous about their religion. There's a girl in my class from Turkey and I was shocked when I found out she was Muslim because she drinks, parties, dresses freely, etc. There are a lot of people like that.
True. I have a Muslim colleague who behaves exactly in the same way. A pretty cool guy who parties and drinks and make funny jokes. And he eats PORK. Yep he was born Muslim but almost has nothing to do with it. I have never seem him pray to the empty sky either.
I don't think a burqa should be allowed in the workplace, schools, government offices, etc. But how can you tell someone what not to wear in the privacy of their own home or during walk in the park? I thought we had the freedom to wear what we want in this society as long as it doesn't harm anyone. Is a burqa strange to me, yes, but so is someone with 1000 tattoos and piercings on their face or someone who chooses to walk around in a spiderman or vampire outfit. How can we tell people what to wear unless it proves to be harmful. This is supposed to be an open, tolerant, liberal society for all...is it not?
I don't think a burqa should be allowed in the workplace, schools, government offices, etc. But how can you tell someone what not to wear in the privacy of their own home or during walk in the park? I thought we had the freedom to wear what we want in this society as long as it doesn't harm anyone. Is a burqa strange to me, yes, but so is someone with 1000 tattoos and piercings on their face or someone who chooses to walk around in a spiderman outfit. How can we tell people what to wear unless it proves to be harmful. This is supposed to be an open, tolerant, liberal society for all...is it not?
I don't agree with you on this.
1000 tattos and piercing are what those guys choose to have to express their personality or whatever. Burqas are what those women feel obligated to wear. It is different.
Let's face it, how many of those women really love to wear those costumes out of their own taste? They do, and if asked will probably say they want to only because the religion forces them to, and if not the men will despise them. They wear those because they don't have a choice and want to avoid the negative consequences from not wearing them, not because they think those black veils are pretty or convenient. Honestly, what women don't like pretty clothing and show their beauiful figure and face?
Those women feel the need to wear them precisely because of intolerance toward not wearing them within their own culture. I can't say tolerating such intolerance is a sign of openness and tolerance.
Exactly. If you are not okay with a wife being abused by her husband at her home, then you shouldn't be okay with her wearing a burkha at her home.
And I find it difficult to take them at their word when I am told that these women in burqas are doing it voluntarily (cultural/ religious reasons).
Sam Harris once said: .. what does voluntary mean in a community where, when a girl gets raped, her fathers first impulse, rather often, is to murder her out of shame?
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli
I don't agree with you on this.
1000 tattos and piercing are what those guys choose to have to express their personality or whatever. Burqas are what those women feel obligated to wear. It is different.
Let's face it, how many of those women really love to wear those costumes out of their own taste? They do, and if asked will probably say they want to only because the religion forces them to, and if not the men will despise them. They wear those because they don't have a choice and want to avoid the negative consequences from not wearing them, not because they think those black veils are pretty or convenient. Honestly, what women don't like pretty clothing and show their beauiful figure and face?
Those women feel the need to wear them precisely because of intolerance toward not wearing them within their own culture. I can't say tolerating such intolerance is a sign of openness and tolerance.
Exactly. If you are not okay with a wife being abused by her husband at her home, then you shouldn't be okay with her wearing a burkha at her home.
And I find it difficult to take them at their word when I am told that these women in burqas are doing it voluntarily (cultural/ religious reasons).
Sam Harris once said: .. what does voluntary mean in a community where, when a girl gets raped, her fathers first impulse, rather often, is to murder her out of shame?
Well, not all families where women wear burqas would murder a daughter who got raped. I am pretty sure of that.
1000 tattos and piercing are what those guys choose to have to express their personality or whatever. Burqas are what those women feel obligated to wear. It is different.
Let's face it, how many of those women really love to wear those costumes out of their own taste? They do, and if asked will probably say they want to only because the religion forces them to, and if not the men will despise them. They wear those because they don't have a choice and want to avoid the negative consequences from not wearing them, not because they think those black veils are pretty or convenient. Honestly, what women don't like pretty clothing and show their beauiful figure and face?
Those women feel the need to wear them precisely because of intolerance toward not wearing them within their own culture. I can't say tolerating such intolerance is a sign of openness and tolerance.
I agree with you but it's very difficult to prove that it is coercion (which I think we all know it is) and therefore justify a ban because of course the proponents of burqas are very skillful at putting well-spoken veiled women out there in the media etc. to try and convince us that it is their choice.
And it's a really tough one to manage - for everyone. We have friends of ours who are what you might call relaxed muslims. They don't drink alcohol or eat pork and they observe ramadan but the women including teenagers all dress western-style, are allowed to go out with friends, etc.
Well lo and behold after a trip to the old country this summer one of the daughters decided she wanted to wear the hidjab and long flowing skirts from now on. It's her choice. Her parents are a bit distraught and say it's one of her uncles in the old country (who's never been to Canada BTW) who "brainwashed*" her. (*The choice of words, not mine.) Obviously in this case there is no fear involved but there is indoctrination I suppose.
Quite the contrast anyway when you consider that the other female members of the family have been swimming in our pool in bikinis.
Last edited by Acajack; 08-23-2013 at 08:24 AM..
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