Why does Thorncliffe Park get such a bad rep?

[peaceandlove23]

Reading this thread really saddens me with the pre-conceived notions people have towards immigrants in Canada, especially Toronto, which prides itself as a multicultural city.

Jim, you talk about people getting "social assistance" as if they don't need it, as if all people who are receiving social assistance are somehow leaching off the government and not paying their taxes. I assume this because of you mentioned that you chose to live on a street wherein people don't receive social assistance, as if that was somehow a negative reflection on somebody's character. I don't understand this stigma. I am sure you are very grateful that you are able to work a comfortable job and because of that, you have had the luxury of choosing where you live - and congratulations, you are living the dream, and I know you have gotten to that point because of your hard work and diligence.

However, not everyone can have the same luxury as you do. Immigrants who come to Canada are not unemployed by choice - and it is not because they are uneducated either. Canada simply doesn't recognize the education/training nor the job experience they've had in their own countries, not to say that all educational systems are equal, but if there were more programs that can easily transition the education/training they received in their countries and upgrade it to Canadian standards within a reasonable timeframe (as most immigrants who come to Canada come with families who also need to be fed and therefore, they cannot go to school and be unemployed for too long) then it would be easier for them to get jobs that is within their field. But because our system lack programs like these, immigrants are forced to work at low-paying jobs in order to make rent, therefore the need to cram big families into small apartments.

What I am trying to explain here is that the low income characteristic that seems to apply to many immigrants in Toronto is NOT the explanation/end-all answer to the problem: it is a SYMPTOM. A symptom of what our own social programs lack, of what the government needs to deliver. It really frustrates me that people seem to accept that poverty only applies to immigrants and "lazy" people. Perhaps it is easier to think this way than to question the systems of power in place.

Please read this article in order to change your perspective: [url]http://www.yorku.ca/goldring/clippings/TalesfromtheTower.pdf[/url]

And Jim, before you say that public housing projects exist in the area, perhaps you can check your facts first - there are currently no subsidized housing in Thorncliffe Park. If there is, please point me to one, and I will be glad to recant this fact. I just don't understand how people can remunerate opinions and present them as facts, in order to strengthen their narrow-minded argument.

[macstjo]

Originally Posted by canadian citizen

Marissa:

OK I guess that you and I have quite different ideas about what makes a neighbourhood bad or good.

Having lived in Toronto for most of my life, I have a sliding scale that I apply to a place, to determine IF I would want to live there.

A few things that I would consider as a negative in an area. Public housing projects. High crime stats. Cleanliness of the streets, and yards. Outward appearance of the homes, per peeling paint, yards with weeds and junk in them. Young males standing around, with no apparent reason to be there. Junked cars .

None of those are found in the part of Toronto where I live. The homes on my street are all owner occupied, no rentals. All of them are well maintained, with lots of flowers, and shrubs. No junker cars, and no boomer music. Every morning on week days, the street empties of vehicles, as people leave to go to work. Most are self employed, in various trades, and professional occupations. There are a number of retired couples, who have lived here for a long time, whose grown children come and help with chores in the garden, or cutting the grass, and cleaning the yards.

My next door neighbour, Maria, has a giant backyard vegetable garden, and she gives us lots of extra things, that she cannot eat by herself. In return I walk her two dogs, and help her with window cleaning and hedge cutting.

No one on this street is collecting any form of "social assistance payment ". They ARE paying taxes, on their income and property, and making positive contributions to the economy, every week.

Jim B

Toronto.

You remind me of someone named Mr. Ford. I think his name was Rob?

[klmrocks]

Originally Posted by canadian citizen

When the old Shorncliffe Park race course was torn down in the 1960's, the area was developed as a really nice place , with a combination of new high rise apartment buildings, with an industrial area just to the north. It was considered a nice place to live THEN.

Over the years, the complexion ( and I do mean the skin colour ) of the area changed, drastically. The apartment buildings became high rise ghettos, with multiple families jammed into two bedroom suites.

Now the area is home to a very high percentage of recent immigrants, and the local schools are just about 100 percent "visible minority " students. The newest school to be opened is the largest Kindergarden ONLY school in Canada, with seven hundred kids in it. Imagine that, a school that is ONLY for five year olds, and they have it filled to the brim, in it's first year of operation.

This is a part of Toronto that has many problems, mostly due to immigration, and the huge numbers of kids that immigrant families seem to have. The population density is amazing.

You couldn't pay me to live there, and thankfully, I don't have to.

Jim B

Toronto.

I go to this area periodically. My dislike towards this area are the rows and rows and rows of high rise buildings usually filled with new immigrants. Rows and rows of high rise building only looks okay to me if the streets are lined with nice ground level stores and gardens. Not that I have a problem with either, but too much concentrations of either is a concern to me. Visibly unappealing area in my opinion. I know people that live there that are new immigrants. They are by no means poor (husband's an engineer with a 6 figure job). I personally find when you have too many immigrants or people of specific enthic/cutlural origons regardless of how long they have been in Canada in an area it starts to look ghetto like. I prefer areas that have mixed structural and cultural diversity. Ex even in China Town, Little India or Korean areas of Toronto you do not only see people of those cutures. Other locals from all cultural backgrounds are in the area. Mind you that can change. I went for dinner at this Afghani Restaurant (really great food) and at first I was little uncomfortable to be honest (ex. Many women in the restaurant did have burkas on and I was dressed like I could have been going to a night club and very packed place (also a sign the food is good). However, in the corner of my eye I did notice 2 very Anglo looking men sitting down and having dinner and they seemed to really be enjoying their meal. No one there (even the super conservative families) did anything to make us feel uncomfortable and everyone was enjoying the food and very respectful of each other.

I got to mention another pretty interesting thing. I am not sure if many non-Muslim Canadians know this, but typically in Muslim restauratns that are frequented by more religious patron in even western countries typically there are areas of the restaurant that they will often sit women or families for their own comfort to keep them apart from single males. It is a pretty interesting take on visibly conservative Muslims in Toronto to see them in mixed environments like this comfortably. To me is shows are very progressive type of positive adaptation as a feel it is super important not to have new immigrants be isolated with in their own cultural communities.

Big plus of this area in Toronto is there are lots of really well priced and delicious ethnic restaurants. On an interesting note I got to mention many of the new immigrants that move in to this area are very education focused and conservative (traditional) which also suggests the birth rates in these areas are higher.

[memph]

Regarding crowded apartments in Thorncliffe Park.

Thorncliffe Park has the most crowded census tract in the GTA, by a good margin. It consists of 5 high-rises on the S/SE side of Thorncliffe Park Drive, census tract 194.01.

Housing conditions:
Average of 3.5 rooms per dwelling (rooms, not bedrooms)
Average of 3.6 people per household
Average of 0.97 rooms per person
46.6% of households have more than 1 person per room
61.6% of households are overcrowded*
14.4% of dwellings require major repairs

The other parts of Thorncliffe Park are relatively comparable to other similar communities across the GTA with a lot of older rental high-rise apartments (or with TCHC housing).

194.03 (area inside Thorncliffe Park Drive)
Average of 1.48 rooms per person
13.2% of households have more than 1 person per room
29.0% of households are overcrowded

194.02 (area east of Thorncliffe Park Drive on both sides of Overlea ex Leaside Towers)
Average of 1.28 rooms per person
24.5% of households have more than 1 person per room
36.6% of households are overcrowded

194.04 (area west of Thorncliffe Park Drive, also includes the new townhouses and condos just north of Vanderhoof Skatepark which I don't consider park of Thorncliffe Park)
Average of 1.46 rooms per person
16.5% of households have more than 1 person per room
29.6% of households are overcrowded

Other census tracts to compare to that are relatively crowded

250.05 (Rowntree Dr/Panorama Ct in Etobicoke)
Average of 1.32 rooms per person
21.0% of households have more than 1 person per room
41.2% of households are overcrowded

249.05 (Mt Olive, the part between Albion Mall and Mt Olive Drive)
Average of 1.14 rooms per person
27.7% of households have more than 1 person per room
37.9% of households are overcrowded

312.05 (area between Jane & Finch and Driftwood & Grandravine)
Average of 1.50 rooms per person
8.7% of households have more than 1 person per room
34.8% of households are overcrowded

316.03 (area between Jane and Gosford/Peter Kaiser Gate)
Average of 1.32 rooms per person
15.3% of households have more than 1 person per room
38.9% of households are overcrowded

65.00 (St James Town)
Average of 1.43 rooms per person
17.1% of households have more than 1 person per room
28.1% of households are overcrowded

Toronto CMA
Average of 6.0 rooms per household
Average of 2.8 people per household
Average of 2.14 rooms per person
4.6% of households have more than 1 person per room
11.2% of households are overcrowded
6.0% require major repairs

*Based on National Occupancy standard which takes into account number of bedrooms and age, sex and relationship of household members

[wolfpheonix]

I have lived on Thorncliffe Park Drive for 4 years and I chose the area for the low rent and central location. Having a first hand view of the neighbourhood I can tell you very simply what the problem is...and this problem has only become a real issue in the past year and a half...there is group of n'er do wells that aspire to be "gangsters". And some of these are actually decent young men that are just caught up in the "game", following to fit in with the other kids they have grown up with. If the Police Service actually wanted to eliminate this problem, these misguided souls are very visible. They hang out at the entrances of the mall, blocking doorways, smoking weed and generally just trying to be tough guys. As usual, it;s easy to be tough when you are in a group of ten - fifteen. But I digress. Unfortunately, the standard operating procedure of our Police Service is to deal with a problem after if has developed into a "Major Problem". We hear the common rhetoric about how the police cannot be everywhere all the time or we hear the jibber jabber about limited resources. I see police in this area often, and they tell these thug wannabes to scram but they really don't do anything that will proactively eliminate that problem growth. As such, the inevitable crimes and power plays will happen. Thankfully, these trouble makers tend to keep it among themselves. There is a slight undertone of race/religion in the neighbourhood but this is not the catalyst for the recent spate of crime. The police service needs to do their F***ing jobs better or it is going to get a whole lot worse.

[klmrocks]

I think these kids needs something constructive to do. In my opinion this is the problem with lower income areas. Parents are often working longer hours and are not around to watch their kids and keep them in line. I grew up a better working class area of Toronto and really saw this often. It was very uncomfortable having swarms of young men just hanging around in groups in front of places. I don't think policing is going to solve the problem. I think there needs to be more social services ex. community programs to help guide these kids. Give then direction and help build stronger more productive youth. The difference between kids/teens like myself and some of the other youth in my the area I grew up in was that I had a grandparent or extended family at home to keep me in line while my parents were at work. We were not permitted to be wondering around the area doing whatever. If we were going somewhere we needed permission and had to be back at a certain time or we would have my grandmother, father or mother running around looking for us and waiting to drag us back home. If the community does not step in to help guide these kids and help steer them in the right direction they are going to end up being a headache for all of us.

[abia1234]

thorncliffe is great.i love it.it is my home.i really do not want to leave my good friends.my mom is forcing me to move to pickering.i have had so much fun experiences here.i really will miss it.i cried so much when i found out we were moving.yymy mom scolds me everytime i ask herif can sell the house to someone else and just stay here.it is so peaceful here since half the community is from the same place as i do but my parents just dd not seem to get it and my feelings.i do not even know what i should do.i really hate it.i am not sure what to do.i really want to go to vpms.my parents just do not listen.i wish i could stop them from making me move.

[klmrocks]

Originally Posted by abia1234

thorncliffe is great.i love it.it is my home.i really do not want to leave my good friends.my mom is forcing me to move to pickering.i have had so much fun experiences here.i really will miss it.i cried so much when i found out we were moving.yymy mom scolds me everytime i ask herif can sell the house to someone else and just stay here.it is so peaceful here since half the community is from the same place as i do but my parents just dd not seem to get it and my feelings.i do not even know what i should do.i really hate it.i am not sure what to do.i really want to go to vpms.my parents just do not listen.i wish i could stop them from making me move.

Change is hard, but in the long run the purchase of a home in that area is likely for the best. You can always visit your freinds on the weekend. It is not that far away. Support your parents decision as the move is also going to be difficult for them and you should not want to cause them more stress because the decision can not be reversed so easily.

[Concerned Tenant of 79]

After living here for almost two years. I dont mind the new Canadians. What i mind however is they’re lack of care and consideration for shared residencies. My neighbours garbage is always being thrown or blown by the wind onto my balcony, I’ve taken pictures of dirty diapers just lying on her balcony floor. The building has since been renovated beautifully and not soon after; it’s already being vandalized and defaced. Scrapping newly painted elevators and writing on the newly painted walls. The rugs were replaced and I’ve seen food and garbage spilt on the floors. We have/had a terrible pigeon infestation where balconies were not in sanitary conditions to be in use. Since then theyve now put pigeon nets to prevent them nesting but residents continue to feed them perpetuating the infestation. Building’s ventilation is horrendous. On the hottest of days just waiting for an elevator in the lobby while congested with kids returning from school not only do they rush forward and butt you to get into the elevators before those who had already been waiting; your fighting not to faint from the lack of fresh air and high humidity. When i moved in the landlords(visible minorities) told me they wanted more tenants who look like me (bi racial/white passing). Sadly it’s a misconception to assume race has anything to do with cleanliness or being a good tenant; but it came from the horses mouth of the same culture- which at the time sounded odd but i was in an emergency and needed to move out and the apartment + size and views were too hard to pass up because of a few bad rumours. But since I’ve moved in: I’ve had bedbugs twice, the pay one month and move in ad I responded too wasn’t honoured. I’ve been shafted or denied entry of elevators after waiting for it and being Butt and left to wait for another. The water is shut off regularly for repairs and still smells and tastes of lake water regardless. All i wish for is that the new Canadians show more respect and try to assimilate to Canadian values. There’s no need to throw garbage off their balconies with plastic bags and debris hanging off the edges of your balconies. We live by a nature park full of wild life and water reservoirs. Some more mindfulness of others and the environment would help improve our living standards and perhaps wouldn’t give landlords reasons to increase our rent by 4.2% in attempts to force low income tenants to move. I can barely afford to live here as is without tenants giving landlords reasons to be slum lords