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Hi all, as the title states, I just want to get a feel of what everyone's thoughts are on the future of Toronto's transit, including current and future (likely and unlikely) projects that are proposed by the top mayoral candidates.
I made an effort to attend last night's (September 15) mayoral debate at St. Andrew's Church, just to hear what each candidate's position on this issue is. I feel like transit is one of those key priorities that has the greatest impact on the largest number of people in a city like Toronto. To summarize, yesterday's debate covered the transit agenda of all three major candidates:
1. Rob/Doug Ford - no show (lots of laughter, cheers in the audience...)
2. John Tory - He spent a lot of time on something called a "SmartTrack" LRT line that he would be able to build "in 7 years vs. the 17 years that the Downtown Relief Line would take". He mentioned a lot of good points about SmartTrack, including using existing GO Transit lines, electrification, its wide coverage area, and 22 stations total. However, Olivia Chow pointed out that SmartTrack is simply a "politician's plan" that has yet to gain approval or pass any feasibility studies by actual transit planners. As much as I like the idea, I grew a little skeptical about the 7 year time line...
3. Olivia Chow - She spent a lot of time around electrification of the entire GO network, and she is also a big proponent of building LRT, for obvious reasons (speed, cost). She's also a big proponent of building the Downtown Relief Line, citing several times during the debate that the Relief Line has always been "TTC's No. 1 Top Priority". However, Tory also brought up the problems of cost and timeline to build the relief line, and the fact that Toronto residents will have to wait another 10-17+ years to benefit from any of this.
I personally don't have any leanings to towards any candidate so far, and I think both candidates have made some very good points and solid proposals with regards to transit in this city. There's a few points that both candidates unanimously agree on:
- Integration of GO Transit and TTC, so riders pay only for one system, instead of the current fragmented fare structure (GO Transit $5 + TTC $3 for most fares), and faster roll out of the Presto payment system.
- Faster implementation of transit projects in general, so that Toronto residents can all benefit in the next few years. I think both candidates agree that transit has become a No. 1 priority now for the city, and we really cannot remain idle any longer.
During the debate, there's always one burning question I wanted to ask. What happened to Transit City, the comprehensive, shovel-ready project that was meant to deliver 7 new LRT lines to us by now? Instead of debating between SmartTrack and Downtown Relief Line, why can't the candidates simply agree to revitalize the former Transit City master plan?
I apologize for the long post. I know similar posts have appeared in the past, but I just want to hear what everyone's thoughts are on this all-too-important issue that could reshape the future of this city. Thanks guys
Deciding what to do is one thing? There is no consensus yet. Getting the money to do it is another? What funds are available and from where? Another biggie. How long can people wait is another issue as well? These are all massive hurdles to get over, especially with questionable leadership at the helm.
As much as a relief line would be ideal, I'm afraid that the cost and time to build it could spiral out of control - if they say it will take 10-17 years to build, you can easily double the actual vs. budget in terms of $ cost and add another 5-10 years due to delays - this is the government running this after all. I think they'll eventually go with LRT lines in some form or another - it's quicker and likely cheaper and I don't think people can wait too much longer. Plus it will ship more people in from the burbs, which will help sell the idea to get more funding.
Last edited by johnathanc; 09-16-2014 at 09:53 AM..
I think by now everyone in Toronto is tired of the endless transit talk. Transit planning and building is a disaster in Toronto yet people keep boasting about "having the second highest ridership in north America" - which is pathetic. Let's first admit it is bad and then work from there.
First put future expansion plans aside, I think there are many things that can be done to improve the current system
1) integrate Go and TTC, like you mentioned.
2) revamp the fare payment system. Continued use of tokens and paper transfers is embarrassing. Presto is taking forever to be implement - it is not some sort of advanced technology. Third world countries have been using electronic payment for years.
3) the way the streetcar system works is ridiculous. WAY TOO MANY STOPS. I don't know why Toronto transit has to stop every f**ing 200 meters, sometimes less than 100 meters, while hardly any other cities do that. It is extremely inefficient and adds the unnecessary commute time for each person. I know there is argument for the senior/handicapped etc but there should be a good balance and we don't have one. Plus, at least remove 1/3 -1/2 stops during rush hours. Seniors and the handicapped don't need to take it during peak time, do they? The same for many bus routes. They stop every 90 seconds to pick up one person, which is stupid. This person could walk 2 more minutes to a bigger station. International standard is 400-500 meter, compared with 150-200 for Toronto.
4) We give too much priority to cars. the King, Queen and Dundas streetcar should have right-of-way, just like the 510/512. Yes, the drivers will complain but just tell them to shut up. One way street such as Richmond and Adelaide is nearby, and I don't understand why would anyone want to drive on King behind a slow moving 504. Additionally, street parking on King/Queen/Dundas should be banned at all time.
5) Charge a congestion fee for entering downtown like they do in London/Boston, at least during certain hours. Use to money toward transit building. I don't mind tolling Gardiner/DVP as well.
3 and 4 can be done very quickly and have immediate results. Yeah there will be whiners but whiners will always whine.
I have mixed feelings about the smart-track. Maybe the timeline is aggressive (who knows, China managed to complete underground subways in a matter of 3-4 years despite the short term pain but any subway in Toronto takes 10+ years), but it seems more hopeful than a subway, which will probably take 15-20 years. If Tory is committed to get it done asap, then I will be happy with the second best. I no longer expect the best because that won't happen in Toronto when politicians cancel each other's plan and design their own every few months as a hobby.
The Yonge relieve line on the east going from Eglinton/Don Mills through Queen/King in the CBD is of course a better solution, but can we really count on that? If it is possible to happen in 2035, then forget it. Long term planning in the Toronto context means nothing will happen. Who knows what crazy mayors we will have in 2030.
I didn't like the Transit City plan. Why? because it continues to build straight east west lines feeding to Yonge, which is over capacity already. Why the hell can't we build something that goes from where people live directly to where they want to go often (downtown usually), instead of having to transfer at some station along Yonge st north of Bloor? I simply don't understand. It is like the lines HAVE to follow surface grid, when we know for a fact that Yonge is crowded enough. This line from Finch or Sheppard I don't care, subway/LRT I don't care, it needs to go downtown directly, with reasonable number of stops (500m-1000M spacing) so that speed can be optimized.
And we probably need to plan for another North South line along Dufferin or something from northwest though downtown as well. Again, no transfer one Yonge. Basically I am in favour of the Chicago model - each rapid line goes to the CBD, as both cities are downtown heavy, unlike say Los Angeles which has multiple nodes. We don't.
People complain about the low ridership on Sheppard line. It is low because the entire line has 4 stops (include Bessarion, where nobody lives nearby). If it had 15 stops it will be a lot more useful.
Also, a principle should be to built transit where the density/demand is, instead of which areas whine the most or where on the map shows an absence. People whine about downtown already having enough options, really? Compared maps of Chicago and Toronto and you know how sad our city is (during business hours Queen and King streetcars in the core are basically useless although they look like of good on the system map).
Along the subway lines, zoning should allow higher density. Check out areas near Dupont, Bathurst, Summer Hill and Castle Frank stations. It is all single family houses nearby, like in the suburbs I mean what the hell? These extremely central areas should explode like Yonge/Eglinton, so that a large number of residents will have direct access to a subway stop. We already don't have enough subway stations (like 1/3 of what we need) yet the existing ones are in low density areas and people need a bus ride to get there? Come on. No wonder commuting is a nightmare for most.
I personally don't care. I live within 15 minutes to everything I need in this city, with PATH access 30 second away. That's how I respond to Toronto's transit disaster - stop depending on it.
I have mixed feelings about the smart-track. Maybe the timeline is aggressive (who knows, China managed to complete underground subways in a matter of 3-4 years despite the short term pain but any subway in Toronto takes 10+ years), but it seems more hopeful than a subway, which will probably take 15-20 years. If Tory is committed to get it done asap, then I will be happy with the second best. I no longer expect the best because that won't happen in Toronto when politicians cancel each other's plan and design their own every few months as a hobby.
I agree on this. From the debate, I think Tory's SmartTrack sounds like it will have the greatest impact on a large number of neighborhoods across Toronto. Plus it is LRT on existing GO Transit so construction should be quick. I am just praying that should he get elected, his plan doesn't get stuck in some feasibility/environmental assessment for eternity...
Honestly, at this point, I think most people in Toronto just want the debates to end and start the construction. LRT, Subway, whatever. Just build something. We have all the transit experts we need. We also have more than enough shovel-ready projects that just need the political will to get started. One point that Olivia Chow made last night, which I find very sane, is that Toronto citizens must be prepared to pay for better transit investment, and that the government must have strict legal stipulations that require taxes to be channeled to transit on a permanent basis so we never under-fund our infrastructure and transit projects.
I think by now everyone in toronto is tired of the endless transit talk. Transit planning and building is a disaster in toronto yet people keep boasting about "having the second highest ridership in north america" - which is pathetic. Let's first admit it is bad and then work from there.
First put future expansion plans aside, i think there are many things that can be done to improve the current system
1) integrate go and ttc, like you mentioned.
2) revamp the fare payment system. Continued use of tokens and paper transfers is embarrassing. Presto is taking forever to be implement - it is not some sort of advanced technology. Third world countries have been using electronic payment for years.
3) the way the streetcar system works is ridiculous. Way too many stops. I don't know why toronto transit has to stop every f**ing 200 meters, sometimes less than 100 meters, while hardly any other cities do that. It is extremely inefficient and adds the unnecessary commute time for each person. I know there is argument for the senior/handicapped etc but there should be a good balance and we don't have one. Plus, at least remove 1/3 -1/2 stops during rush hours. Seniors and the handicapped don't need to take it during peak time, do they? The same for many bus routes. They stop every 90 seconds to pick up one person, which is stupid. This person could walk 2 more minutes to a bigger station. International standard is 400-500 meter, compared with 150-200 for toronto.
4) we give too much priority to cars. The king, queen and dundas streetcar should have right-of-way, just like the 510/512. Yes, the drivers will complain but just tell them to shut up. One way street such as richmond and adelaide is nearby, and i don't understand why would anyone want to drive on king behind a slow moving 504. Additionally, street parking on king/queen/dundas should be banned at all time.
5) charge a congestion fee for entering downtown like they do in london/boston, at least during certain hours. Use to money toward transit building. I don't mind tolling gardiner/dvp as well.
3 and 4 can be done very quickly and have immediate results. Yeah there will be whiners but whiners will always whine.
I have mixed feelings about the smart-track. Maybe the timeline is aggressive (who knows, china managed to complete underground subways in a matter of 3-4 years despite the short term pain but any subway in toronto takes 10+ years), but it seems more hopeful than a subway, which will probably take 15-20 years. If tory is committed to get it done asap, then i will be happy with the second best. I no longer expect the best because that won't happen in toronto when politicians cancel each other's plan and design their own every few months as a hobby.
The yonge relieve line on the east going from eglinton/don mills through queen/king in the cbd is of course a better solution, but can we really count on that? If it is possible to happen in 2035, then forget it. Long term planning in the toronto context means nothing will happen. Who knows what crazy mayors we will have in 2030.
I didn't like the transit city plan. Why? Because it continues to build straight east west lines feeding to yonge, which is over capacity already. Why the hell can't we build something that goes from where people live directly to where they want to go often (downtown usually), instead of having to transfer at some station along yonge st north of bloor? I simply don't understand. It is like the lines have to follow surface grid, when we know for a fact that yonge is crowded enough. This line from finch or sheppard i don't care, subway/lrt i don't care, it needs to go downtown directly, with reasonable number of stops (500m-1000m spacing) so that speed can be optimized.
And we probably need to plan for another north south line along dufferin or something from northwest though downtown as well. Again, no transfer one yonge. Basically i am in favour of the chicago model - each rapid line goes to the cbd, as both cities are downtown heavy, unlike say los angeles which has multiple nodes. We don't.
People complain about the low ridership on sheppard line. It is low because the entire line has 4 stops (include bessarion, where nobody lives nearby). If it had 15 stops it will be a lot more useful.
Also, a principle should be to built transit where the density/demand is, instead of which areas whine the most or where on the map shows an absence. People whine about downtown already having enough options, really? Compared maps of chicago and toronto and you know how sad our city is (during business hours queen and king streetcars in the core are basically useless although they look like of good on the system map).
Along the subway lines, zoning should allow higher density. Check out areas near dupont, bathurst, summer hill and castle frank stations. It is all single family houses nearby, like in the suburbs i mean what the hell? These extremely central areas should explode like yonge/eglinton, so that a large number of residents will have direct access to a subway stop. We already don't have enough subway stations (like 1/3 of what we need) yet the existing ones are in low density areas and people need a bus ride to get there? Come on. No wonder commuting is a nightmare for most.
I personally don't care. I live within 15 minutes to everything i need in this city, with path access 30 second away. That's how i respond to toronto's transit disaster - stop depending on it.
1. Rob/Doug Ford - no show (lots of laughter, cheers in the audience...)
2. John Tory
3. Olivia Chow
I personally don't have any leanings to towards any candidate so far, and I think both candidates have made some very good points and solid proposals with regards to transit in this city. There's a few points that both candidates unanimously agree on:
About fifteen - twenty years ago I found myself sitting near Olivia Chow and a friend or hers, on one of our streetcars. We know Rob Ford and Doug Ford never rode a TTC vehicle in their lives. I strongly suspect John Tory hasn't either, and that he doesn't ride GO Trains either.
John Tory's Smart Track plan does make one overal good point. Toronto has old railway rights of way crossing the city, and some of them go where we need to add local transit. Liberty Village was industrial land, until recently. New highrise condos have turned it in to a knot of density. There is a GO Train station, just south of there, but GO trains aren't really that convenient for riders on shorter trips. Liberty Village commuters report that if the want to get on a King streetcar they have to walk a couple of stops west before trying to board. Transit City would run an LRT parallel to the GO train tracks on the railway right of way.
However, his Smart Track plan has several weaknesses.
Using the railway lands to carve out an exclusive right of way for a surface subway is not something that lies within the Mayor's powers. So he really shouldn't be promising it as a key plank in his platform. Impliementing relies on securing the cooperation of too many other parties.
I think Tory has been misled, from impliementing his plan on the back of an envelope, without being a transit rider himself. GO Trains are massive, with twice as many vehicles as a TTC subway trainset, and each double decker vehicle can carry more riders than a TTC subway train. This means that a line carrying GO trains can, theoretically, carry as many riders per hour as a subway. But it does so by running a massive train every fifteen minutes or so. Subway riders expect subway trains to be frequent, mere minutes apart. Trains that leave every 15 minutes won't be acceptable to subway riders.
The tracks of the railway rights of way are currently still shared with freight traffic
For reasons I don't fully understand, maybe having to do with too many switches, or poor track conditions, trains leaving or approaching Union Station slow to bicycle speeds for several kilometers either side of Union Starion.
As others have pointed out Tory's smart track turns directly north around Warden / Victoria Park -- very near the planned extension of the Bloor-Danforth line up McCowan to Sheppard. Tory supports this subway extension, which largely duplicates his noorthward turn.
As other, like Steve Munro, have pointed out, it is impractical for his Smart Track to turn west at Mount Dennis (Eglinton and Weston Road) to run parallel to Eglinton to Pearson. Steve Munro has pointed out that this turn would require deep tunneling. Attempts were made to expropriate parts of the Mount Dennis community for the Eglinton Crosstown's Mount Dennis station. Those efforts failed, strongly suggesting the turn for his Smart Tack subway would also have to have a tunnel for its turn. He pointed out that it would have to be a deep tunnel, to go under the Crosstown
Decades ago, when Toronto's planners were still planning to crisscross Toronto with a grid of neighbourhood destroying expressways, a right of way was reserved for a "Richview Expressway" parallel to Eglinton. The right of way had been reserved even though the expressway plan was abandoned. 25 years ago, when there were earlier plans to build a subway along Eglinton, it was to use this right of way. But one of the successes of Rob Ford was to transfer that right of way to the city corporation that sells off surplus land, and key properties have already been sold, with highrises being built on it.
Tory counted on out of date maps as to where rights of way were available to plot out his route.
Yes, a tunnel could be bored under Mount Dennis. Tunnels could be bored over the gaps in the Richview right of way. But then it is no longer a super cheap surface subway.
If Tory is elected I sure hope he is flexible enough to see reason and abandon his support for extending the Bloor-Danforth line to McCowan and Sheppard.
I definitely think streetcars along King should be given increased priority (and stops spaced apart more) whether that means signal priority, closing it off to cars during rush-hour, giving them their own ROW or some combination. Dundas and Queen are not quite as busy, and Dundas doesn't have as many alternate parallel routes for drivers, but King is the busiest streetcar route, bound to get quite a bit busier with all the development, has several alternate parallel routes, and generally a fair bit of parking nearby including several public garages.
Regarding the transit city LRT lines, how much capacity can you provide along these routes with buses? I think many of them are getting crowded. Busiest bus routes by daily customers (25k+ per day):
About fifteen - twenty years ago I found myself sitting near Olivia Chow and a friend or hers, on one of our streetcars. We know Rob Ford and Doug Ford never rode a TTC vehicle in their lives. I strongly suspect John Tory hasn't either, and that he doesn't ride GO Trains either.
For the record, I rode the bus and chatted with her in Vancouver about a year ago, so she hasn't gotten too high and mighty for transit yet!
It's just surreal that Doug Ford is actually trailing John Tory and even ahead of Olivia Chow at 34% right now. I have just urged all my friends in university to come and vote on October 27th, because we don't want to be led by someone that makes a laughing stock of normal citizens' IQ.
Here's my take on the whole debates and transit thing: stop debating, just start digging. Dig Dig Dig. I'm not even sure I care where. Just start digging.
If Miller had started digging and tearing up earth, there's no way that Ford could have cancelled his work with the stroke of a pen, negating 7 years of so called work.
dig dig dig.
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