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That really depends to be honest. Not speaking English most of the time doesn't really make everyone's life worse off as a matter of fact. Speaking of being marginalized, maybe they choose to because mainstream Canadian culture doesn't interest them? If I like badminton, should I give it up and switch to hockey although I don't like it at all?
I will use this example again: there are quite many Americans/Canadians in international cities such as Shanghai, Tokyo or Bangkok too. Do you think most of them speak the local language, live like locals and participate in local culture on the frequent basis? No. A significant percentage of them don't even speak the local language although having lived there for years. Do you think they are "marginalized" and "isolated"? One out of every 20 Americans in China actually is able to communicate in Chinese properly, most can't even order food without stuttering, should we criticize them?
I believe people have this bias: if someone moved to a richer country and don't become part of the mainstream culture, then they are being marginalized and it is their fault not to actively participate. Poor them! on the other hand, if someone moved to a less developed country to work and live (not necessarily immigrate, but on a long term basis, 5+ years), everyone thinks that's perfectly normal.
As to Toronto, I think immigrants are doing fine. I don't think most are eagerly to be part of the "Canadian culture", so let them live the way they prefer. The second, third generation will be.
Interesting ... never thought too much about the flip of things ex. English speaking North Americans in other countries. My view regarding being
Re feeling "marginalized" and "isolated" ... I am speaking about not being able to tap in to community resources which can be very scary. For example your are sick, being abused or just in general as you can not understand the main language you are not able to access things independently ... you may not be aware of significant things going on. I use to date someone in Toronto who's family was in Canada for like 10 years. Both parents only spoke their native language and very simple English as a result they both worked low paying jobs, could not really get involved with knowing how their kids were doing in school, always needed their kids to go with them to doctors appointments and to deal with all their financial stuff to translate ... it was problematic. They ended up only being able to work with people that spoke their native language. The parents could not get drive because they could not write the tests. They are not dumb people, but because they did not speak English they were missing out on so much. Simple example... when shopping if you can not read and understand promotions you can not get the best deals and make the most of the sale. If you can not understand the details... you are really loosing out. I am only able to speak English and feel stupid every time I travel ... so I would be scared to live in a country where I did not speak the language and if I ever did I would be working hard to try to learn the language so I did not feel "marginalized" and "isolated". There is nothing more scary or fustrating then having to try to explain to someone what is wrong in an emergency and their is a language barrier. I am always super impressed by people that can speak more then one language and there is research that suggests speaking more then one language may slow down the progression of dementia. I am not really speaking about people doing things in their own cultural groups. However, there have been a lot of documentaries over the last decade regarding new immigrants sponsored by family members that do not speak English living in Ontario that convey how dangerous not speaking the native language is that support why it is a huge concern.
Its all about adapting to where you are. I strongly believe in the adage of "When in Rome, do as the Romans do".
If I move down to Latin America you bet I'm going to learn Spanish diligently and also learn about the local culture and make local friends.
That's why I'm a bit on the conservative side in regards to immigration. I'm in favor of legal immigration of high quality immigrants who are willing to integrate.
I think many European countries have absolutely stupid immigration policies, especially Sweden. That's why you're seeing a pushback from the right in those countries. The Swedish left has been letting in immigrants who are not well educated and don't fit in with the country's culture, and this has become a major problem.
I think there needs to be a mix of immigrants ....... we cannot take every doctors, engineer, PHD student let them immigrate, then tell them they need to retain and having them driving cabs. The understanding the local culture .. is another story. I have mixed views on that because that has been going on forever and if that was the case >75% of the people living in the city would not be here lol (possibly even myself). I am pro mosaic mentality and not melting pot. I was at the U2 concert last night and Bono spoke about how proud Canadians should be regarding our mosaic mentality vs a melting pot mentality (I thought this before I went to the concert .. he did not persuade me to think this way).
I think there needs to be a mix of immigrants ....... we cannot take every doctors, engineer, PHD student let them immigrate, then tell them they need to retain and having them driving cabs. The understanding the local culture .. is another story. I have mixed views on that because that has been going on forever and if that was the case >75% of the people living in the city would not be here lol (possibly even myself). I am pro mosaic mentality and not melting pot. I was at the U2 concert last night and Bono spoke about how proud Canadians should be regarding our mosaic mentality vs a melting pot mentality (I thought this before I went to the concert .. he did not persuade me to think this way).
Yep, the whole doctors working as cab drivers thing is absolutely ridiculous and unfair.
Yep, the whole doctors working as cab drivers thing is absolutely ridiculous and unfair.
it is the same reason milk production is capped in Canada to protect the incumbents.
On the one hand, we don't have enough doctors, on the other, we don't allow immigrant doctors to practice because they are not as good as Canadian doctors.
I am not against some level of credential verification so that not every one with some diplomat can work as a medical doctor, but our system is making it essentially impossible.
Half the immigrants you see only hang out with other immigrants in Toronto. The whole diversity thing in Toronto is drastically overrated. At least in the US its more of a melting pot where a lot of immigrants take on American culture and put their unique twist on it. Here in Toronto, you see people who don't integrate at all into Canadian culture. To be honest, Toronto doesn't have much of a culture. In many aspects its a pretty stale city.
As a minority I prefer to be in a place where I'm an actual minority. Its like going to Latin America and seeing a ****ton of white tourists there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by klmrocks
I think there needs to be a mix of immigrants ....... we cannot take every doctors, engineer, PHD student let them immigrate, then tell them they need to retain and having them driving cabs. The understanding the local culture .. is another story. I have mixed views on that because that has been going on forever and if that was the case >75% of the people living in the city would not be here lol (possibly even myself). I am pro mosaic mentality and not melting pot. I was at the U2 concert last night and Bono spoke about how proud Canadians should be regarding our mosaic mentality vs a melting pot mentality (I thought this before I went to the concert .. he did not persuade me to think this way).
The whole Melting Pot vs Mosaic differences died with the most recent waves of immigration in N. America and Europe. Cultures die out or are preserved to the same extent in both the US and Canada. If you compare cities in both countries and their ethnic enclaves and communities, you will see it is the same result, especially with each passing generation.
Interesting ... never thought too much about the flip of things ex. English speaking North Americans in other countries. My view regarding being
Re feeling "marginalized" and "isolated" ... I am speaking about not being able to tap in to community resources which can be very scary. For example your are sick, being abused or just in general as you can not understand the main language you are not able to access things independently ... you may not be aware of significant things going on. I use to date someone in Toronto who's family was in Canada for like 10 years. Both parents only spoke their native language and very simple English as a result they both worked low paying jobs, could not really get involved with knowing how their kids were doing in school, always needed their kids to go with them to doctors appointments and to deal with all their financial stuff to translate ... it was problematic. They ended up only being able to work with people that spoke their native language. The parents could not get drive because they could not write the tests. They are not dumb people, but because they did not speak English they were missing out on so much. Simple example... when shopping if you can not read and understand promotions you can not get the best deals and make the most of the sale. If you can not understand the details... you are really loosing out. I am only able to speak English and feel stupid every time I travel ... so I would be scared to live in a country where I did not speak the language and if I ever did I would be working hard to try to learn the language so I did not feel "marginalized" and "isolated". There is nothing more scary or fustrating then having to try to explain to someone what is wrong in an emergency and their is a language barrier. I am always super impressed by people that can speak more then one language and there is research that suggests speaking more then one language may slow down the progression of dementia. I am not really speaking about people doing things in their own cultural groups. However, there have been a lot of documentaries over the last decade regarding new immigrants sponsored by family members that do not speak English living in Ontario that convey how dangerous not speaking the native language is that support why it is a huge concern.
You are right about those immigrants. I know plenty of them as well. Not knowing the language is essentially a handicap in a new country. And it is unlike those English speaking expats who are usually very well paid and can always only deal with English speaking locals (usually the high education high income groups) in other countries.
However, it is largely Canada's fault. Our immigration policy clearly states that one should be able to communicate in English, but implementation is horrible.
I have friends who can hardly carry on a conversation in English for more than 3 minutes, and you end up having big trouble understanding their grammar/accent, yet they passed all English exams and got accepted. They ended up washing dishes or cutting hair at their own communities for $6 an hour because they simply can't pass the necessary exams to do anything more profitable.
I also know people who easily passed the French interview for Quebec immigration when it is clear they can't speak more than 20 complete sentences in French. Yet Quebec let them in.
These are all real life cases. What the hell are our immigration officers doing? Are they on drugs? I am not against immigrants speaking their own language in their spare time, live the lifestyle they like (as long as obeying Canadian laws), but it is absolutely essentially that they do possess the linguistic skills to live independently in non-ethnic Canadian neighbourhoods.
That really depends to be honest. Not speaking English most of the time doesn't really make everyone's life worse off as a matter of fact. Speaking of being marginalized, maybe they choose to because mainstream Canadian culture doesn't interest them? If I like badminton, should I give it up and switch to hockey although I don't like it at all?
I will use this example again: there are quite many Americans/Canadians in international cities such as Shanghai, Tokyo or Bangkok too. Do you think most of them speak the local language, live like locals and participate in local culture on the frequent basis? No. A significant percentage of them don't even speak the local language although having lived there for years. Do you think they are "marginalized" and "isolated"? One out of every 20 Americans in China actually is able to communicate in Chinese properly, most can't even order food without stuttering, should we criticize them?
I believe people have this bias: if someone moved to a richer country and don't become part of the mainstream culture, then they are being marginalized and it is their fault not to actively participate. Poor them! on the other hand, if someone moved to a less developed country to work and live (not necessarily immigrate, but on a long term basis, 5+ years), everyone thinks that's perfectly normal.
As to Toronto, I think immigrants are doing fine. I don't think most are eagerly to be part of the "Canadian culture", so let them live the way they prefer. The second, third generation will be.
The problem with this comparison is that you are comparing two completely different types of immigrants. Most English speaking immigrants in Asia are there for work reasons and typically work for American companies serving an English speaking clientele. On the other hand non English speaking immigrants in a place like Canada are immediately marginalized because they dont speak the language and do not have the luxury of working in a foreign language bubble. So the only way for them to access mainstream Canadian life is to either open their own business or learn to speak English, there is hardly any middle ground.
Personally though I think that Americans/Canadians/British, etc...working in the Middle East, Asia, wherever should learn the local language if they are there for an extended period of time. It is the respectful thing to do and also makes your stay more enjoyable. I know this first hand because much of my working life has been spent in the Middle East and you notice how much happier you are living abroad when you can interact with and access the local culture as opposed to walling yourself off in some artificial "ex-pat" enclave.
The whole Melting Pot vs Mosaic differences died with the most recent waves of immigration in N. America and Europe. Cultures die out or are preserved to the same extent in both the US and Canada. If you compare cities in both countries and their ethnic enclaves and communities, you will see it is the same result, especially with each passing generation.
I agree. I don't find the melting pot/mosaic difference at all. I don't know why people keep talking about it, but may be I don't see the whole picture.
The Chinese immigrants for example, live exactly the same way in the US vs. Canada. I honestly can't think of any meaningful difference.
I agree. I don't find the melting pot/mosaic difference at all. I don't know why people keep talking about it, but may be I don't see the whole picture.
The Chinese immigrants for example, live exactly the same way in the US vs. Canada. I honestly can't think of any meaningful difference.
It is not a big picture issue at all, they are the exact same. Compare the Chinese community in Flushing to Vancouver, is there really that much difference in how each one is preserved (I do understand that there are regional differences in where the immigrants came from in China)
You could go on and on with this: Haitian community in Boston vs Montreal; Jamaican community in Miami vs Toronto, etc....you end up with a similar result.
The problem with this comparison is that you are comparing two completely different types of immigrants. Most English speaking immigrants in Asia are there for work reasons and typically work for American companies serving an English speaking clientele. On the other hand non English speaking immigrants in a place like Canada are immediately marginalized because they dont speak the language and do not have the luxury of working in a foreign language bubble. So the only way for them to access mainstream Canadian life is to either open their own business or learn to speak English, there is hardly any middle ground.
Personally though I think that Americans/Canadians/British, etc...working in the Middle East, Asia, wherever should learn the local language if they are there for an extended period of time. It is the respectful thing to do and also makes your stay more enjoyable. I know this first hand because much of my working life has been spent in the Middle East and you notice how much happier you are living abroad when you can interact with and access the local culture as opposed to walling yourself off in some artificial "ex-pat" enclave.
Yes, in my previous post I acknowledged such difference, however, the underlying mentality is the same.
You can surely blame those immigrants who don't bother learning English in Canada, but in reality, the percentage of those people in Canada/US (probably 10% at most？）is far lower than those high income English speaking expats who don't bother learning local languages elsewhere （more like 90%).
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I think there needs to be a mix of immigrants
