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Since this is my first post on this forum, let's make it a good one
My girlfriend and I, both living in Belgium (Antwerp), are considering moving to Canada within the next 2 years, our shortlist of cities consist out of Toronto, Montreal and Quebec.
Both of us are in our mid-twenties and employed by multinational US companies (IT & Pharmaceuticals), this move would be the first big step in our 'masterplan' of living around the world without changing or pausing our professional careers (e.g. backpackers).
The reason why Canada is the first country on our list is fairly simple:
- Safe choice in terms of careers
- Most European minded of the Americas
- Quality of life
- Cultural diversity
- Nature
- ..
We've both been to Montreal for on short vacation, since we've experienced the city from a tourist perspective we are planning on going back in June and try to experience all aspects of living in a big Canadian city, being:
- People
- Day-to-day life (this might be a tough one)
- Housing
- Cost of living
- Professional opportunities
- ..
Since this is a pretty big exercise to do, I was wondering if people here who did similar moves (or locals) have any good tips, do's/don'ts so we can achieve a full experience of these cities.
Furthermore I was also wondering if companies exist that offer guidance/services in administrative matters like achieving a 'green card', housing,..
Montreal in terms of being a large city (Quebec City is smaller). Is the most European-like offering in North America. From a cultural standpoint, Montreal will be a smoother adjustment than Toronto. Montreal is largely a multi-lingual city, with many residents speaking both English and French interchangeably. Communicating in French should not be a problem. Montreal has a beautiful sense of culture and self, with a sophistication, architecture and style beyond its years, however, in terms of economic progression due to politics, the exit of Canadian business to Ontario, the city does have a little bit of "stuck in time" feel. Great for tourists, however, for career progression...tbd...lol.
Toronto is larger, more international, and you will be exposed to a vast array of cultures from around the world such as South Asian, Caribbean, West and East African, East Asia, South America, Italian, Portuguese, Greek, etc. You can literally walk down a major street and have different cuisine from all over the world. Toronto may not have that strong identity Montreal has, however, you get the feeling things are progressing in Toronto as the city is growing rapidly. The economy is robust and there is opportunity especially in the service sector. In terms of the feel, Toronto is a mix between banker, blue collar, quirky and international cross roads. It is hard to describe, but there is a great positive energy in the city, at least from my perspective.
Both cities are close the US, Montreal being a shorter drive to New York. However, for flying, Toronto does have more options for international flight opportunities.
Now for the areas you are zeroing in on:
- People
Individuals say Torontonians are mean. I am born in raised in Toronto and I have not had many issues in terms of help, warmth etc. However, Montrealers are open, I would say more open socially than their Toronto counterparts. But I want to speak against folks that say Torontonians are rude and cold. This is not true.
- Day-to-day life
The general idea is that in Toronto people live to work and in Montreal people work to live. I mean, the Montreal/Quebec culture does focus on time for relationship and family. With that said, it is not like we do not care about these things in Toronto, but I guess the American pressures do create a more stressful work life balance. In summary, Montreal is more about the life, less about the work. Toronto is a little more geared towards work and career, however, folks will still get out and have a good time.
- Housing
Housing is more affordable in Montreal, Toronto is out of control. A decent 2 bedroom apartment or condo rental in Toronto is probably a minimum of $1800 a month.
- Cost of living
Montreal is more affordable. Toronto salaries are higher generally. Keep in mind in regards to Toronto, because you do have the international commerce piece, there is more upward pressure on cost of living and housing.
- Professional opportunities
Toronto. Montreal can work for one fluently bilingual. However, as mentioned the job market is larger and more robust in Toronto.
- Education
I would have to give the edge here to Montreal due to the affordability and provincial subsidies.
- Sports
Montreal has a long established tradition in Hockey with the Canadiens. However from a top 4 North American sports league stand point. Toronto has NHL (Leafs), NBA (Raptors) and MLB (Blue Jays). Edge here is Toronto.
Hope this helps. Informal quick review. Feel free to PM me, however, many on this board have lived in Montreal and Toronto. I work for a company with a strong presence in both cities and have visited Montreal quite a few times and have friends from there.
While Quebec City is beautiful and has very low unemployment, the Pharmaceutical and IT industries in Canada are dominated by Montreal and Toronto, each being very strong in these two sectors. One thing to be aware of with the pharmaceutical industry in both cities is that these jobs tend to exist in their autocentric suburbs because of the cheap square footage for manufacturing and private research labs, while IT jobs are much more urban. As such, you might want to consider getting a car if you come to one of these cities because of the pharmaceutical industry's geography, despite their having very respectable public transportation industries. As Toronto is bigger, the distances between the suburban pharmaceutical jobs and the IT startups downtown are greater then in Montreal, which is one of many factors you may want to consider.
Montreal in terms of being a large city (Quebec City is smaller). Is the most European-like offering in North America. From a cultural standpoint, Montreal will be a smoother adjustment than Toronto. Montreal is largely a multi-lingual city, with many residents speaking both English and French interchangeably. Communicating in French should not be a problem. Montreal has a beautiful sense of culture and self, with a sophistication, architecture and style beyond its years, however, in terms of economic progression due to politics, the exit of Canadian business to Ontario, the city does have a little bit of "stuck in time" feel. Great for tourists, however, for career progression...tbd...lol.
Toronto is larger, more international, and you will be exposed to a vast array of cultures from around the world such as South Asian, Caribbean, West and East African, East Asia, South America, Italian, Portuguese, Greek, etc. You can literally walk down a major street and have different cuisine from all over the world. Toronto may not have that strong identity Montreal has, however, you get the feeling things are progressing in Toronto as the city is growing rapidly. The economy is robust and there is opportunity especially in the service sector. In terms of the feel, Toronto is a mix between banker, blue collar, quirky and international cross roads. It is hard to describe, but there is a great positive energy in the city, at least from my perspective.
Both cities are close the US, Montreal being a shorter drive to New York. However, for flying, Toronto does have more options for international flight opportunities.
Now for the areas you are zeroing in on:
- People
Individuals say Torontonians are mean. I am born in raised in Toronto and I have not had many issues in terms of help, warmth etc. However, Montrealers are open, I would say more open socially than their Toronto counterparts. But I want to speak against folks that say Torontonians are rude and cold. This is not true.
- Day-to-day life
The general idea is that in Toronto people live to work and in Montreal people work to live. I mean, the Montreal/Quebec culture does focus on time for relationship and family. With that said, it is not like we do not care about these things in Toronto, but I guess the American pressures do create a more stressful work life balance. In summary, Montreal is more about the life, less about the work. Toronto is a little more geared towards work and career, however, folks will still get out and have a good time.
- Housing
Housing is more affordable in Montreal, Toronto is out of control. A decent 2 bedroom apartment or condo rental in Toronto is probably a minimum of $1800 a month.
- Cost of living
Montreal is more affordable. Toronto salaries are higher generally. Keep in mind in regards to Toronto, because you do have the international commerce piece, there is more upward pressure on cost of living and housing.
- Professional opportunities
Toronto. Montreal can work for one fluently bilingual. However, as mentioned the job market is larger and more robust in Toronto.
- Education
I would have to give the edge here to Montreal due to the affordability and provincial subsidies.
- Sports
Montreal has a long established tradition in Hockey with the Canadiens. However from a top 4 North American sports league stand point. Toronto has NHL (Leafs), NBA (Raptors) and MLB (Blue Jays). Edge here is Toronto.
Hope this helps. Informal quick review. Feel free to PM me, however, many on this board have lived in Montreal and Toronto. I work for a company with a strong presence in both cities and have visited Montreal quite a few times and have friends from there.
- Safe choice in terms of careers: Toronto is probably a slightly better option as its economy is healthier. Though Montreal is doing OK too.
- Most European minded of the Americas: There is often a debate about this but I think most people agree that Montreal and Quebec City tend to be more European-minded than Toronto.
- Quality of life: Hard to say. Toronto is somewhat more functional as a city whereas is more chaotic, though it's not even close to being like a city in southern Italy or Greece.
- Cultural diversity: Toronto is tops but Montreal is good too. Quebec City not so much. This does not mean that Quebec City is very xenophobic BTW, although some people may tell you that.
- Nature: Montreal and Quebec City have better access to nicer nature that you can easily enjoy over the four seasons. Toronto has Lake Ontario however which is almost like being on the ocean even though you are pretty far inland.
- People: Montrealers are generally considered to be more approachable and fun, but can also be flighty. Torontonians are not boring (as some people say) but they are a bit more reserved and "sensible".
- Day-to-day life (this might be a tough one): Probably fairly similar.
- Housing: Much more expensive in Toronto than in Montreal or Quebec City. This will be the main difference and it's a big one.
- Cost of living: Most things are fairly similar in cost, though income and sales taxes in Quebec are higher. Public transit is cheaper in Montreal, as is electricity. Food is quite similar. Dining out is probably a bit cheaper in Montreal. As I said above, it's really housing that is the kicker.
- Professional opportunities: Toronto for most people
Another thing, Montreal and Quebec City often jump out at people for being unique and all that jazz, and they are.
Whereas Toronto is often labelled as generic and people often dismiss as being very similar to an American city.
There are many similarities, and if you go live there you might think after a while that this is what living in an American city feels like, but Toronto isn't really "just like" an American city. It is different because it's in Canada.
I suppose coming from Flanders you are probably used to people saying that you're exactly like the Dutch, or something like that.
Canadians (and especially Anglo-Canadians) hear that a lot regarding Americans.
- Most European minded of the Americas: There is often a debate about this but I think most people agree that Montreal and Quebec City tend to be more European-minded than Toronto.
Just my opinion, but: although Montreal or Quebec City are somewhat more European-minded than Toronto... it's not difficult to find people in Toronto with a "European" approach to life. Montreal and Quebec have a lot in common with central Europe. They're laid-back and have a laissez-faire attitude, etc., but they also have a strong American influence, and are uniquely "Quebec" at the same time. Toronto has a lot of diversity, and large communities that are first- or second-generation European immigrants to Canada. I'd say there are parts of Toronto that are very similar to northern Europe. Reserved, career-driven, but still worldly and sophisticated.
I am just curious here: when you said you both work for multinational US companies, I assumed you will be working in Canada via internal transfer, is that right ? Because if not, and you intend to just come over and look for a job, then it won't work, because you would need the work permit , applied by the employer, which is fairly difficult and time consuming to get, and if the border agent knows you are here to look for job you won't even be let in
Just my opinion, but: although Montreal or Quebec City are somewhat more European-minded than Toronto... it's not difficult to find people in Toronto with a "European" approach to life. Montreal and Quebec have a lot in common with central Europe. They're laid-back and have a laissez-faire attitude, etc., but they also have a strong American influence, and are uniquely "Quebec" at the same time. Toronto has a lot of diversity, and large communities that are first- or second-generation European immigrants to Canada. I'd say there are parts of Toronto that are very similar to northern Europe. Reserved, career-driven, but still worldly and sophisticated.
I largely agree.
I wouldn't have raised the ''Europeanity'' of Montreal and Quebec City if it hadn't been one of the questions in the OP.
But if that's really a consideration for people, then I'll go with Montreal and Quebec City over Toronto.
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