People in Toronto area (violent crime, tenant, landlord)
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Nice try. I live in San Diego now and am enjoying a completely different experience. But I always appreciate the typical Torontonian approach of snarky passive-aggressive responses to my critiques. Reminds me why I am so happy to have left.
I moved here from the states 6 months ago. And coming as a tourist is different from living. I have not found people as warm and easy to befriend. They are not rude by any means... I found Aussies much warmer, even New Yorkers. So I am heading back to NYC as soon as I can get a job once again south of the border.
FelllowTraveler - this is such an accurate picture of Toronto, it's not even funny! I'm an ex-Quebecer who is, 11 years after moving to TO, still dealing with the people (or trying to deal would be more accurate) here and still cannot believe how unfriendly they are etc...you're right, people are polite etc but man the lack of social skills can be depressing...I also thought people here were pretty friendly when I first visited as a late teen in the early 90's but oh man did that impression not last very long when I started to live here...I would say the Beaches area would be a bit of an exception where I found people to be somewhat more friendly than elsewhere around the city...though I enjoy the "physical" city, its neighborhoods, parks, ravines, streets etc, I can 100% relate to your personal experience here...funnily enough, I interviewed on the phone for a job in San Diego a few months ago and was really, really, really looking forward to moving there (and OUT of Toronto for good) but did not unfortunately land the position Not sure if it's worth the hassle with paperwork etc but I would love to move to SD or Southern California...Because I've been here so long now I think have simply forgotten how nice people can be elsewhere outside the GTA...not sure how far I have to go from Toronto before I meet people with some social skills etc...it seems to be spreading out of here and into the rest of Ontario but I could be wrong, I hope that's not the case...I was in the Midwest a couple times this year and I was so impressed at how nice (and just normal!) people were over there...when I came back to TO, the first person I talked to at the airport was rude and I said to myself, OK I really need to get out of here...enough of this!! Again, some people don't perceive the city to be like that at all I guess they're lucky or simply not used to or have not experienced anything better therefore their bar is set pretty low!...I remember talking to a college student years ago who had lived in Montreal for a few years while attending university there and she was shocked when she moved back to Toronto after realizing that people outside this city had a different (i.e. more interesting) way to approach human relationships especially in public places such as bar patios etc when at times in places like Montreal strangers break into conversations (this happened to me a few times in Toronto but the people were always tourists)...not having lived anywhere else other than Toronto growing up, she assumed the attitude here to be "normal" human behavior until she started traveling and noticing how brutal people can be to each other around here sometimes, especially the lack of interest in others that's constantly being displayed on a daily basis...I have been working at a new job and company here in downtown Toronto for the past few months and am reminded on a daily basis of the attitudes you're describing so accurately in your post...I mean some of the people can be super nice etc when making casual conversation around the office etc but I always seem to be the one who initiate those conversations and once I'm done talking that's it, that's the end of it and rarely do people come back and express any interest in me etc...again there are always a few exceptions to the rule and once you show some of those people that you're interested in what they have to say etc then some and very few of them start opening up a little but man it is hard to get to that point!!...the only nice folks around the office are usually not from Ontario but rather from the States and the UK...to be fair, a few people from Toronto are great but again, there's this shyness that's kind of bothersome to the point where you're not sure if people are simply being polite or truly friendly...
Back to SD, the cost of living there seemed a little scary but I found the people there while traveling there about a year ago to be much easier to have a conversation with etc than here (which keeps reminding how sad human relationships can be in this city)...even employees at the mall and restaurants in Orange County were very talkative etc...anyway, this is just confirming what I've been telling my wife for years!!...I was pretty lucky for years I worked with mostly great bosses etc but I'm unfortunately realizing now that was just not the norm...I think I know what you mean by "passive aggressive" as I am noticing that trait more and more especially since I first read about it on this forum. After 11 years in Toronto, I have now officially given up on trying to make real fiends here...luckily a few work colleagues from a past job are great and I can get together for drinks once in a while but they all have their own Toronto circle of friends from having grown up here etc...I find it almost impossible to break into the clique thing going on here in this city...so all in all, yes there are some great people here but unless you're formally introduced to them through some kind of social circle or network, good luck and even then good luck in trying to push that relation to real friendship status...anyways, enough ranting for now!!
Last edited by Canadian73; 09-13-2008 at 02:54 AM..
I moved here from the states 6 months ago. And coming as a tourist is different from living. I have not found people as warm and easy to befriend. They are not rude by any means... I found Aussies much warmer, even New Yorkers. So I am heading back to NYC as soon as I can get a job once again south of the border.
Yes, isn't it interesting that even New Yorkers are warmer than Torontonians! Of course New Yorkers can be quite rude and aggressive when they want to be. But at least they acknowledge your existence. And you get the sense that their rudeness isn't so much a function of personal hatred so much as it is simply their way of communicating, sort of like a habit. But with Toronto people, it does feel like personal hatred, manifest in a highly subtle way.
FelllowTraveler - this is such an accurate picture of Toronto, it's not even funny!
I really do feel for you, and I appreciate you sharing your personal story. I have only visited Montreal a few times, but Montreal people always struck me as genuinely warm people (although again, I only visited so I am no expert on Montreal).
11 years is a long time to live in Toronto. When I was there I felt like I would never escape, and I am sure you must feel that way now. But rest assured there IS life after Toronto, and when you are out you will look back on it all and think "what was that place all about?".
I am fortunate to have been born a dual citizen, so it has been easy for me to move back and forth between the two countries. Personally I prefer Americans as I have gotten used to the culture down here. Canadians in general are more reserved and shy, and Toronto seems to be an extreme version of the worst aspects of Canadians.
That said, once you step outside of the GTA Canada is a much nicer country. I know what you mean though about the feeling that the Toronto "mentality" is spreading. It seems that a lot of people in Ontario visit Toronto and think that it is better, absorb the Toronto mindset and bring it home. Sort of like how the New York mindset spreads into places like Vermont and Connecticut. But there are at least as many Ontarians who visit Toronto and hate it, and are equally determined to make sure that their hometown is nothing like Toronto. I would say that anyplace that is over 2 hours from Toronto is a safe bet.
If I didn't have my U.S. citizenship and was looking for a place in Canada with good people, I would probably not live in Ontario at all though. I would either pick Halifax or Calgary. Maritimers are the friendliest people I have ever come across, and I think the East Coast of Canada is beautiful. Personally I am more of a West Coast person, but I have heard mixed things about Vancouver. Kelowna is apparently beautiful and the people are probably more like Albertans.
My point is that even if you cannot get sponsered in the U.S., you have a multitude of options in Canada that are infinitely better than Toronto. Canada is a great country outside of the GTA, and even better outside of Ontario altogether.
I enjoyed your story of your friend who was from Toronto and then went to Montreal and then went back. Even though I am not from Toronto orginally, I had a similar experience as I had not traveled much before moving there for school. I never adjusted to Toronto while in school, but I always thought that I must be the problem. I always thought that I must be a small town person who just can't adjust to life in the big city and to big city people.
Well, after moving to the States and living in a few places, I soon ended up in Los Angeles, which has a metro area 3 times the size of Toronto. And despite the stresses of big city life, I found people there who were warm and friendly and sociable - i.e. completely different from Torontonians. That was when I realized that the problem was never me after all, it was not that I couldn't handle the big city. It was that I couldn't handle Toronto. And in fact, Toronto didn't seem like all that much of a big city compared to L.A. It somehow felt quite small and parochial and provincial the second time around.
Do not despair, my dear friend. Don't let Toronto break you. Be persistent in seeking out those job opportunities elsewhere, and get up every day knowing that you are one day closer to your last day there. Because you are.
Yes, isn't it interesting that even New Yorkers are warmer than Torontonians! Of course New Yorkers can be quite rude and aggressive when they want to be. But at least they acknowledge your existence. And you get the sense that their rudeness isn't so much a function of personal hatred so much as it is simply their way of communicating, sort of like a habit. But with Toronto people, it does feel like personal hatred, manifest in a highly subtle way.
I have on several instances (on weekends) had people walk up to me and ask if I needed help -- this was when I was looking at a subway map. And when I told them I was local but trying to figure out how to get to queens, I got a stereotypical response.. "God why would you want to go there" with a laugh. Of course during rush hour people will not be as friendly but if you stop and ask, they will help.
Well, after moving to the States and living in a few places, I soon ended up in Los Angeles, which has a metro area 3 times the size of Toronto. And despite the stresses of big city life, I found people there who were warm and friendly and sociable - i.e. completely different from Torontonians. .
There was an interview with a Canadian comic living in LA in a Toronto rag and he mentioned that he met more people in his building during his first week in LA than in 9 years of living in TOR!
Hey how hard is it to cross the border with your posessions? Did US customs need a lot of paperwork? I don't have too much and I do have my car (but my car was bought in the US so its US compliant).
Heading home soon...
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You're so right FellowTraveler
Not sure if it's worth the hassle with paperwork etc but I would love to move to SD or Southern California...Because I've been here so long now I think have simply forgotten how nice people can be elsewhere outside the GTA...not sure how far I have to go from Toronto before I meet people with some social skills etc...it seems to be spreading out of here and into the rest of Ontario but I could be wrong, I hope that's not the case...I was in the Midwest a couple times this year and I was so impressed at how nice (and just normal!) people were over there...when I came back to TO, the first person I talked to at the airport was rude and I said to myself, OK I really need to get out of here...enough of this!! Again, some people don't perceive the city to be like that at all I guess they're lucky or simply not used to or have not experienced anything better therefore their bar is set pretty low!...I remember talking to a college student years ago who had lived in Montreal for a few years while attending university there and she was shocked when she moved back to Toronto after realizing that people outside this city had a different (i.e. more interesting) way to approach human relationships especially in public places such as bar patios etc when at times in places like Montreal strangers break into conversations (this happened to me a few times in Toronto but the people were always tourists)...not having lived anywhere else other than Toronto growing up, she assumed the attitude here to be "normal" human behavior until she started traveling and noticing how brutal people can be to each other around here sometimes, especially the lack of interest in others that's constantly being displayed on a daily basis...I have been working at a new job and company here in downtown Toronto for the past few months and am reminded on a daily basis of the attitudes you're describing so accurately in your post...I mean some of the people can be super nice etc when making casual conversation around the office etc but I always seem to be the one who initiate those conversations and once I'm done talking that's it, that's the end of it and rarely do people come back and express any interest in me etc...again there are always a few exceptions to the rule and once you show some of those people that you're interested in what they have to say etc then some and very few of them start opening up a little but man it is hard to get to that point!!...the only nice folks around the office are usually not from Ontario but rather from the States and the UK...to be fair, a few people from Toronto are great but again, there's this shyness that's kind of bothersome to the point where you're not sure if people are simply being polite or truly friendly...
