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Winter tires DO NOT substitute for winter driving experience. An inexperienced driver can get into just as much trouble with winter tires as he or she could without them. Do winter tires make winter driving conditions somewhat easier for a good winter driver to handle? Yes, but that good winter driver can likely make it without dedicated winter tires, just not as easily. Sort like getting thrown into a 100' deep lake. A good swimmer can probably manage to get to shore with a 20 lb. weight strapped to him, but it would be easier without it. A person who doesn't know how to swim is probably going to drown either way.
I'm not sure that's a great comparison. A better comparison would be deciding not to give a pair of floaties to someone who can't swim well. If you threw them in the water, they could probably make it to the shore, but they'd struggle. The best solution would be to teach them how to swim, but lets face it, people don't want to learn.
Snow tires provide more traction than all-seasons in the snow, period. Even if you're driving at the appropriate speed during a snow storm, you may still need to do some emergency braking or maneuvering. Having snow tires absolutely will give either driver more control.
There will always be bad swimmers / drivers out there. But I would much rather them have snow tires on their cars than not. The last thing I want is some idiot spinning out and hitting me, rear ending me, or causing a 2 hour traffic jam because they aren't good drivers AND they have inadequate tires. Ideally, they'd fix both, but one out of two is better than neither.
I currently drive a 2013 prius V and love it. I do a lot of city/freeway driving, and we live in the south. So it fits us perfectly. But we plan to move to minnesota next summer and I am thinking we might have to sell the prius. So I have questions for anyone willing to help me out:
Would a prius v be a safe and reliable car in winter in minnesota?
Would we get better trade in in the south v. The north for the prius?
What are some of the best vehicles for safety and reliability in snow (needs to be under 40kish, not too bad on gas, beyond that I don't have too many requirements).
Any thoughts? Thanks!
Is your big worry the "chilling effect" on battery life, or traction, or both? Seems to me that any small FWD car would have the same basic limitations as another up there.
As some have alluded to, it's not the tires folks. You can buy all kinds of tires to do the job. The issue is battery output on any hybrid can be cut by as much as 50% due to the cold temps. As the batteries age, the condition gets worse. The car will still go, it'll just use a lot of gas to do it making it a lousy mode of transportation in winter cold. As most have already found out, hybrids are a novelty, at best. Many of the normal gasoline engine drive train cars can exceed the hybrids in fuel economy. And no expense batteries to replace or major hits on trade in as they get older.
Winter tires DO NOT substitute for winter driving experience. An inexperienced driver can get into just as much trouble with winter tires as he or she could without them. Do winter tires make winter driving conditions somewhat easier for a good winter driver to handle? Yes, but that good winter driver can likely make it without dedicated winter tires, just not as easily. Sort like getting thrown into a 100' deep lake. A good swimmer can probably manage to get to shore with a 20 lb. weight strapped to him, but it would be easier without it. A person who doesn't know how to swim is probably going to drown either way.
I work at a place where the only way home is uphill. There is no room to get a run for it. You pull out of the parking lot, and you're immediately climbing. When it's covered in snow, no amount of experience or skill will get my Civic up that hill with all season tires on. When I put on my el cheapo General Altimax Arctic studded snow tires, I can go all the way up and the tires don't spin. Not to mention that I can apply much more pressure on the brakes before they lock up, so I can stop sooner in an emergency, or in the case of going in to work, actually be able to slow down to turn into the parking lot.
They may not be required by law, but once you've actually gone through a winter with them, you'll never willingly go through another winter without them. Did you watch the two videos I posted earlier? That's not CG; the difference in handling really is that drastic.
All-season tires are absolute rubbish on snow and ice, but nobody realizes it until they've actually experienced the difference first-hand.
Winter tires are great but only about 5% of cars in Minnesota use them so they are clearly not a requirement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeachSalsa
^^^this. Not required.
That wasn't the argument.
Drive one season in winter tires and you'll quickly realize how foolishly arrogant people are for not using them. I made the jump last year, and have been kicking myself for being so cocky in the past.
Drive one season in winter tires and you'll quickly realize how foolishly arrogant people are for not using them. I made the jump last year, and have been kicking myself for being so cocky in the past.
I totally agree that snow tires provide better performance, but I would not characterize people as being "foolishly arrogant" for not using them. I used snow tires for 7 years on a previous car, and I've used all season tires for the past 6 years. I've never had an accident in either car as I practice safe driving no matter the tires I use. I've been stuck in my driveway both with and without snow tires, but that has only been because the snow plow left a large pile in my driveway while I was away at work.
All season tires are decent (not the best), and anyone who drives safely can make them work in most situations. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are unaware or a little "ignorant" of the benefits of snow tires, but "foolishly arrogant" seems to be quite an exaggeration. A few people might choose all season tires due to cockiness, but I'd imagine cost or laziness is the main factor in most cases.
As some have alluded to, it's not the tires folks. You can buy all kinds of tires to do the job. The issue is battery output on any hybrid can be cut by as much as 50% due to the cold temps. As the batteries age, the condition gets worse. The car will still go, it'll just use a lot of gas to do it making it a lousy mode of transportation in winter cold. As most have already found out, hybrids are a novelty, at best. Many of the normal gasoline engine drive train cars can exceed the hybrids in fuel economy. And no expense batteries to replace or major hits on trade in as they get older.
This is pretty much BS. That might be true for some of the early hybrids and some other makes than Toyota, but the current Toyota hybrid system is very well-engineered. My Prius will drop from about 50 mpg in summer to around 45 mpg in very cold winter temperatures, a 10% drop in fuel economy for the math impaired. That's about the same as a conventional gas engine vehicle. The worst that I've seen was around 42 mpg in sustained below zero temperatures with a substantial amount of short distance trips.
The battery pack is not the issue in the reduction of the cold weather mpg, it's the gas engine. The Prius gas engine is very light in weight, so it will cool off rapidly when not running. In order to maintain its own operating temperature, it simply has to run more in very cold temperatures. The Prius battery pack has its own cooling system, a feature necessary to cool it during warm outside temperatures. The pack actually produces heat when it is being charged that has to be dissipated in those warm temperatures. In cold weather, the battery pack cooling system does not need to run much. Now, if a Prius has been sitting in very cold temperatures for an extended period, then, yes, the battery pack will need to warm up, but it does that in very short order (within minutes, usually) as soon as the vehicle is started.
A sidebar, in many places, additional ethanol is added to gasoline in winter ("oxygenated fuel" to reduce winter air pollution). Since higher ethanol content gasoline has less energy per gallon, that will negatively affect fuel economy of all gasoline-fueled vehicles in the winter all by itself. Where I buy my fuel, "summer" gasoline has around 3% ethanol; their "winter" fuel is 10% ethanol--it does make a hit on fuel economy.
Finally, that second to last sentence of the post quoted above is COMPLETE BS. There are only a couple of diesel vehicles sold in the US that may exceed the fuel economy of a Prius in highway driving, but even they can't touch The Prius' fuel economy in city driving. Moreover, the cost per gallon premium of diesel fuel (sadly) pushes the diesels' cost per mile higher than the Prius. I'm an diesel lover, but, after I crunched all the numbers, the Prius beats the diesel cars hands down in cost per mile. And, of course, the BS continues about battery failures in the Prius. The truth is that the hybrid battery failure rate is miniscule, even among Prii that have over 200K miles on the odometer. I suspect that, on most Prii, the batteries will long outlast most of the rest of the car--probably at least 200K-300K miles. Prius haters also never talk about the fact that gas engine in the Prius is only running about 50%-75% of the miles that vehicle is driven, so it should easily go 250K-300K miles without any major maintenance.
A Prius does as well, if not better, than any other vehicle in cold climates.
I work at a place where the only way home is uphill. There is no room to get a run for it. You pull out of the parking lot, and you're immediately climbing. When it's covered in snow, no amount of experience or skill will get my Civic up that hill with all season tires on. When I put on my el cheapo General Altimax Arctic studded snow tires, I can go all the way up and the tires don't spin. Not to mention that I can apply much more pressure on the brakes before they lock up, so I can stop sooner in an emergency, or in the case of going in to work, actually be able to slow down to turn into the parking lot.
They may not be required by law, but once you've actually gone through a winter with them, you'll never willingly go through another winter without them. Did you watch the two videos I posted earlier? That's not CG; the difference in handling really is that drastic.
All-season tires are absolute rubbish on snow and ice, but nobody realizes it until they've actually experienced the difference first-hand.
I've driven vehicles equipped with both all-season and dedicated snow tires in some of the worst winter driving conditions that one could imagine. My feeling is that, if conditions are bad enough that one can't make it with all-season tires on a FWD car, then it might be a good idea to stay home. If I have to get out in really vicious conditions (and my work often requires that), then is when I resort to driving my "beater" 4WD. Usually when it comes out for me is not for poor highway driving conditions, but when I have to go onto unplowed roads where the low ground clearance of a car is lower than the snow depth. In that situation, and AWD or 4WD vehicle with higher ground clearance is a necessity.
I've faced the type of conditions the poster cited above many times. Driving in winter on steep grades is a way of life for me. Last winter, I decided to see just how extreme a winter condition my Prius, equipped with its factory all-season tires, could handle. I was on a deserted secondary highway in the mountains. I stopped the vehicle on an 8%+ grade covered in sheet ice (if you tried to get out of the vehicle and stand on it, you would fall down). I fully expected the Prius to falter. Boy, was I wrong. I gently stepped on the accelerator and the Prius calmly got moving on the sheet ice, barely having to engage the traction control (a feature that I do love on any vehicle so equipped). The Prius stayed moving and easily accelerated up to a safe speed. I turned around and came down the same ice-covered steep grade. Driving at a prudent speed and braking gently (and that is the ONLY way to safely brake on ice), the Prius slowed to safe stop. I've done the same thing many, many times on very slick roads in a FWD car equipped with all-season tires while clowns in even AWD's and 4WD's were slipping and sliding around--often into the ditch. The key is driving with "finesse" and driving with an understanding of your vehicle's strengths and limitations, along with knowing what your own driving experience can handle.
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All season tires are decent (not the best), and anyone who drives safely can make them work in most situations. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are unaware or a little "ignorant" of the benefits of snow tires, but "foolishly arrogant" seems to be quite an exaggeration. A few people might choose all season tires due to cockiness, but I'd imagine cost or laziness is the main factor in most cases.
Ignorant yes, but cost is the worst argument.
Snow tires are more economical than all-season tires. 1 set of snows + 1 A/S > 2 sets of A/S. You don't need much tread in summer, but people frequently have to chuck half worn A/S tires to be "safe" for winter.
Also, most folks downgrade their rim size for winter, thus getting a cheaper tire. My car has 18" stock rims, but 15" and 16" both fit for winter. There is a huge price increase from 16" to 18" tires.
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