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The difference, young man is that none of those other cars are sold by GM in this market. Come back and make your case when there is a Chevy riding on the same platform. If people feel like the Buick is just an overpriced Malibu or Impala then, you may be on to something - but you aren't, because they won't. Platform sharing is smart business.
Ha ha, you're using "potential future and concept vehicles" to make a point?
Just stop posting.
And when someone pointed out that some Lexus models have corresponding models that wear a Toyota badge, it was said that it was proof that they were "not real luxury cars."
The difference, young man is that none of those other cars are sold by GM in this market. Come back and make your case when there is a Chevy riding on the same platform. If people feel like the Buick is just an overpriced Malibu or Impala then, you may be on to something - but you aren't, because they won't. Platform sharing is smart business.
Ha ha, you're using "potential future and concept vehicles" to make a point?
Just stop posting.
Look I like Buick and their resurgance is great. Lexus and Buick TODAY is apples to oranges. Lexus offers so much more than Buick its not a fair comparison. Buick doesn't even offer a V-8 anymore and when they did it was in a FWD Lucerne.
It is hilarious people bashing Lexus and the ES but then not acknowledging the same points for Buick.
Lexus is a global powerhouse with the Germans. Buick doesn't even have real wood in their cars for crying out loud.
Funny platform sharing is dumb for Lexus but great for Buick. Thank goodness the American people BAILED OUT GM so Buick could survive.
So basically you are admitting that Lexus no longer has a huge advantage over other brands, in this case an American one? That is is very easy for a company like GM to build a car that is just as compettitive, but better then a Lexus, all they need is three or four years? I have no problem speculating that the next ES could be better then the current Lacrosse, but would you then cut Buick any slack if they turn the tables? Or will it be back to American suck and Lexus is the best like most of their fans say? I doubt it. All I hear is how Lexus is the best at this and that, and just because a new Lacrosse has a couple of years development advantage it shouldn't be a valid excuse. Lexus should not have gotten soft and let their most important car wither on the vine.
I'm not saying you say this, but I've heard enough Lexus fans tell me they'd rather drive a five or six year old Toyota product before they'd drive a new American car. They believe the cars are that much better and that much farther ahead. To hear "complaints" about Buick having an advantage because of difference in product cycle is a huge shift in the typical tune of the average Lexus fanatic.
What the hell? So your happy a bailed out brand finally got their stuff together? Its great the LaCrosse is great today. The ES has been great since 1992 or so. It is the standard in the soft entry level class. Buick targets the ES in commercials.
Buick is more on par with an Acura or a Saab, they sell mostly under $40,000 vehicles. They don't even have vehicles to fight most of Lexus lineup.
The ES is old and you are picking on it? Were you defending Buick when they were churning out crap in the 90s and most of the 2000s?
I looked at a Lacrosse at the Auto Show this weekend. Nice car, but anyone who has spent any time in a real luxury car can easily pick out the cheap GM cost-cutting. I immediately noticed how cheap the plastic felt, the cheap plastic pull bar instead of a power module for the tilt / telescopic steering wheel, the bargain-basement parts pulled from a Cobalt.
That's the "issue" here. When people are harsh critics of the ES, they say they feel too much Camry in it to feel like they are driving a "real" luxury car. IMO, there tends to be a more forgiving attitude towards it then there would be for a GM product.
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The reason you hear people say they would rather drive an older Toyota than a new GM is because GM has a nasty habit of putting out a nice initial product that falls apart as time goes by. It may be mechanically sound, but it rattles and squeaks, and the interior looks sad....a Toyota doesn't, especially a Lexus.
Look, I know WHY they say it, the point is they KEEP saying it, even though GM products are not like that any more. This isn't the 80's or early 90's any more. To hear Lexus fans finally say "well the ES has been on the market for a long time, and that's why it lost" is an excuse. It is also a paradigm shift in their thinking. They KNOW GM has caught up and makes competitive cars now, there's no more denying it.
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Lexus hasn't let their most important product wither...first off, their most important is the RX. Second, one review doesn't mean the ES is an awful car. It still matches the Lacrosse almost step-for-step. I don't know what's more astonishing, that the Lexus is still so competitive after being on the market so long, or that Buick didn't do a better job of copying it.
I guess that's one way of looking at it. I'm surprised Buick can deliver a better car for cheaper. What is Lexus excuse? There's more then one review BTW. It is also funny how you assume I think the ES is awful. Please quote where I said that. Just me saying the Lacrosse is better makes you put words in my mouth. What is it with you guys? Either a a person bows down before the mighty Toyota or they're spitting on them. No grey.
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The Lacrosse is a very nice car, and I think it's a great thing for Buick. But it will never be as nice as a Lexus, nor offer the same level of luxury.
And five years ago a Lexus fan said a Buick would never win a comparison test over a Lexus.
And when someone pointed out that some Lexus models have corresponding models that wear a Toyota badge, it was said that it was proof that they were "not real luxury cars."
I know you think you are being clever and have caught me painting myself into a corner, but please elaborate on how that is analogous to what is going on here. The Lacrosse shares a platform with other vehicles sold in other markets. It does not exist with the same content and sheetmetal as a Chevy in another country.
I understand the "controversy" over wether Buick is to be considered a luxury brand. I am the one that posted RL Polk's definition of entry level luxury. They have changed it over the years to accomodate cheaper cars. I am pointing out the irony in that this class didn't exist years ago when Lexus came out as they were generally cheaper then the Germans that dominated the luxury class. Now Buick has under cut them further and LExus people say it is too cheap to be considered a competitor.
I DON'T CARE if you consider the Lacrosse a luxury car or not. I DON'T CARE if you consider Buick a luxury brand, or near luxury, or tier 2 or tier 3 or whatever BS people come up with. The fact is that it HAS BEATEN the ES in head to head tests and is cheaper and American.
This is a close one, as both cars have their strengths and their weaknesses. But in the end, what counts is not just the fact that the new LaCrosse is a credible Lexus ES 350 rival: More important, it's a credible Buick. That's enough to give it the win, by a nose.
Also, the ES was refreshed in 2010, so saying its the exact same as 2006 is just a sleight of hand half-lie excuse.
That's the "issue" here. When people are harsh critics of the ES, they say they feel too much Camry in it to feel like they are driving a "real" luxury car. IMO, there tends to be a more forgiving attitude towards it then there would be for a GM product.
Again, history. GM has an awful one, Toyota doesn't.
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Originally Posted by Tourian
Look, I know WHY they say it, the point is they KEEP saying it, even though GM products are not like that any more. This isn't the 80's or early 90's any more. To hear Lexus fans finally say "well the ES has been on the market for a long time, and that's why it lost" is an excuse. It is also a paradigm shift in their thinking. They KNOW GM has caught up and makes competitive cars now, there's no more denying it.
GM is doing better. But they still aren't there yet. The cars still have unforgivably cheap touches for no reason. Second, they do not hold up as well as other cars, even newer GM's. I saw hundreds, if not thousands, of trade-ins, and GM's were always some of the worst after a few years.
In fact, it was evident at the auto show. The ES still looked pretty good despite all the people sliding in and out, but the Lacrosse was looking a little worn.
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Originally Posted by Tourian
I guess that's one way of looking at it. I'm surprised Buick can deliver a better car for cheaper. What is Lexus excuse? There's more then one review BTW. It is also funny how you assume I think the ES is awful. Please quote where I said that. Just me saying the Lacrosse is better makes you put words in my mouth. What is it with you guys? Either a a person bows down before the mighty Toyota or they're spitting on them. No grey.
I didn't say you think the ES is an awful car. I actually do. I would rather drive my Mazda than drive an ES.
What I get irritated about is the constant harping that Lexus isn't a luxury brand or that the ES is just a fancy Camry. Neither is correct.
As far as "better car", that's entirely subjective. It still feels cheaper to me sitting inside it, and lacks some of what I would consider true luxury features. But then again, if price is your main point of comparison, you aren't a real luxury car buyer anyway.
It's like the Hyundai Equus. It seems like a very nice car, and it's certainly less expensive than other cars, but it's not a luxury car and two minutes of sitting in it makes that blatantly obvious.
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Originally Posted by Tourian
And five years ago a Lexus fan said a Buick would never win a comparison test over a Lexus.
And what will be even more interesting is if GM keeps up the good work or just lets it sit and molder like they tend to.
I know you think you are being clever and have caught me painting myself into a corner, but please elaborate on how that is analogous to what is going on here. The Lacrosse shares a platform with other vehicles sold in other markets. It does not exist with the same content and sheetmetal as a Chevy in another country.
I understand the "controversy" over wether Buick is to be considered a luxury brand. I am the one that posted RL Polk's definition of entry level luxury. They have changed it over the years to accomodate cheaper cars. I am pointing out the irony in that this class didn't exist years ago when Lexus came out as they were generally cheaper then the Germans that dominated the luxury class. Now Buick has under cut them further and LExus people say it is too cheap to be considered a competitor.
I DON'T CARE if you consider the Lacrosse a luxury car or not. I DON'T CARE if you consider Buick a luxury brand, or near luxury, or tier 2 or tier 3 or whatever BS people come up with. The fact is that it HAS BEATEN the ES in head to head tests and is cheaper and American.
Did you not get hired at a Toyota plant or something? You seem to really dislike Toyota/Lexus for whatever reason.
You don't think a Government Motors Brand is going to win comparisons in American magazines?
The fact is the ES has always offered a V-6 powertrain, real wood, elecroluminect gauges and fit and finish on par with a $100,000 car. The LAcross offers a I-4 and starts at $27,000, it should outsell the ES, it starts $7,000 cheaper. It doesn't have real wood, the interior is nowhere as well built but it is larger inside.
What funny is your review shows the LaCrosse BARELY won the comparison, its not like it trounced the older ES.
Its funny people make fun of Lexus for being a copy, and here is Buick, being a copy of a copy and you love it.
Again, history. GM has an awful one, Toyota doesn't.
It is all a matter of perspective. You pick one decade or two and call that "GM's history." You do know the company is 100 years old right? There are people who are die hard fans of each that would paint totally different pictures by remembering better times. I could just pick the last couple of years in Toyota's "entire history" with their current recall disaster which is pretty damn awful and say the same thing.
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GM is doing better. But they still aren't there yet. The cars still have unforgivably cheap touches for no reason. Second, they do not hold up as well as other cars, even newer GM's. I saw hundreds, if not thousands, of trade-ins, and GM's were always some of the worst after a few years.
In fact, it was evident at the auto show. The ES still looked pretty good despite all the people sliding in and out, but the Lacrosse was looking a little worn.
Anecdotes and opinion.
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What I get irritated about is the constant harping that Lexus isn't a luxury brand or that the ES is just a fancy Camry. Neither is correct.
You know, we've been through this. I believe Lexus is a luxury brand created to sell more expensive Toyotas. I do not care that this gets people twisted up. It is a fact. You mention the Equus and that you don't think it is a luxury car. Why not? It is based on a platform that Hyundai probably spent millions if not a billion dollars developing just for it and the Genesis. It does not share that platform with a cheaper Hyundai. It has an MSRP that puts it in midlevel luxury status. But for some reason, it is "blatantly obvious" it isn't a luxury car to you. That's the same hypocrisy you hate that people show towards Lexus products. The only thing they didn't do is create separate showrooms and launch the cars under a seperate brand.
So I can understand not considering Hyundai a luxury brand, but to not consider the Equus or even the Genesis sedan as luxury cars is downright silly.
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Thank goodness the American people BAILED OUT GM so Buick could survive.
and you love it. 
