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Old 06-14-2010, 07:53 AM
 
14,260 posts, read 23,991,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
FO pay is still way too low.

And pay doesn't equal QOL.

Plus that was a press release put out by the company, definitely not an independent source.
The article presents both sides of the issue and includes the company's proposal. Of course, generally, the press only presents the union's side of the issue.
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Old 06-14-2010, 08:01 AM
 
11,938 posts, read 21,528,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlawrence01 View Post
The article presents both sides of the issue and includes the company's proposal. Of course, generally, the press only presents the union's side of the issue.
That article you linked to was from a company press release. No union info in it.

There is no way a pilot at Spirit would ever come close to $200k. That was an outright lie.
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:40 AM
 
Location: The Raider Nation._ Our band kicks brass
1,854 posts, read 8,742,575 times
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This is what happens when you have pilots that are willing to fly for less than 20 grand a year. Probe blames pilot errors for Colgan Air's Buffalo crash - CSMonitor.com


People see $125 an hour, and then try to compare that with their own job at 40 hours a week. It doesn't work that way. You can't compare them that way.

$125 is only for time in the air. All of the work on the ground is done for free. That's hours sitting in the airport, inspecting the plane before every flight, checking weather, making a flight plan, loading passengers, sitting on the ramp waiting for takeoff, and sitting in your motel room for days waiting for your next flight. You can go through all of that, and if the flight cancels for any reason, you just worked for free.


That's all time away from home doing something for the company, not yourself. If you're a drinker, that also means that you can't drink for at least 8 hours before you are scheduled to be at the airport. The FAA, and the company control your life. That's worth a lot more than 20 grand a year to me.
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:13 PM
 
563 posts, read 457,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
Good points. Unfortunately pilots can not just change their contract at any time. They have to stand their ground when they get the chance.

The company can lock out its pilots and hire new ones. However it's doubtful many, if any, will apply.

"Earning a decent living" sure, as a Captain. As a First Officer, no.
Granted, you need to stand your ground when you get the chance, but it comes to the time we are in, in this economy. When things are good, then I say go for it. The economy is not good right now. I think you are going to see some pilots out of work soon. Especially after I heard they were offered an increase, but not what they wanted.

I really hope Spirit comes out and fires them all. I am sure there are pilots there that will take the job in today's lack of a job market.
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:17 PM
 
563 posts, read 457,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by South Range Family View Post
This is what happens when you have pilots that are willing to fly for less than 20 grand a year. Probe blames pilot errors for Colgan Air's Buffalo crash - CSMonitor.com


People see $125 an hour, and then try to compare that with their own job at 40 hours a week. It doesn't work that way. You can't compare them that way.

$125 is only for time in the air. All of the work on the ground is done for free. That's hours sitting in the airport, inspecting the plane before every flight, checking weather, making a flight plan, loading passengers, sitting on the ramp waiting for takeoff, and sitting in your motel room for days waiting for your next flight. You can go through all of that, and if the flight cancels for any reason, you just worked for free.


That's all time away from home doing something for the company, not yourself. If you're a drinker, that also means that you can't drink for at least 8 hours before you are scheduled to be at the airport. The FAA, and the company control your life. That's worth a lot more than 20 grand a year to me.
Oh, almost like being a truck driver. You can only drive for so many hours and you have to do inspections, but you only get paid when the wheels are turning.

These pilots are permitted to fly I believe someone said 100 hours a month which is over $12,000 a month. I do not feel bad for them at all.

And, if they are a drinker? Are you really condoning that it is okay for a pilot to have a drink within 8 hours of flying? Did you know that a truck driver is not permitted to refuse roadside exercises and the legal limit is much less?

Fire them all.
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Old 06-14-2010, 10:53 PM
 
Location: The Raider Nation._ Our band kicks brass
1,854 posts, read 8,742,575 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Storm View Post
And, if they are a drinker? Are you really condoning that it is okay for a pilot to have a drink within 8 hours of flying? Did you know that a truck driver is not permitted to refuse roadside exercises and the legal limit is much less?

Fire them all.
Not condoning it at all, just stating the rules. Pilots, and mechanics are subject to drug, and alcohol testing at any given time. Official rules are no drinks 8 hours before a shift. Blow 0.02 and you just blew your entire career. That's a lifetime loss of your license.

I'm not a drinker, so it doesn't really bother me. How many engineers, and other office workers have drinks with their lunch? It's just another way that you can't compare a pilot's job with somebody that isn't in a safety related job. Since the Government dictates the way I have to live my life, that's worth more compensation than an average job.

Did you ever notice that most people think that they are under paid, but the rest of the world makes too much money? That's what we have here.

Last edited by South Range Family; 06-14-2010 at 11:03 PM..
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Old 06-15-2010, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Houston, Tx
3,644 posts, read 5,561,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by South Range Family View Post
Not condoning it at all, just stating the rules. Pilots, and mechanics are subject to drug, and alcohol testing at any given time. Official rules are no drinks 8 hours before a shift. Blow 0.02 and you just blew your entire career. That's a lifetime loss of your license.

I'm not a drinker, so it doesn't really bother me. How many engineers, and other office workers have drinks with their lunch? It's just another way that you can't compare a pilot's job with somebody that isn't in a safety related job. Since the Government dictates the way I have to live my life, that's worth more compensation than an average job.
Most companies inform their employees that they are subject to random drug testing. That is very common. Also, at the company I work for if you have a drink at lunch time and go back to work you can be fired. I think that is probably the case with most companies. No one wants their employees working drunk.
Yes, you actually can compare airline pilots with other jobs. Anyway, teh best measure of what an individual is worth for his job is what an individual can get for that job. In the absence of unions everyone will be paid what they are worth. When unions enter the picture and threaten to cripple a company if they don't get their collective wages then salaries no longer reflect an individual's ability but instead reflect the collective strength of the unions intimidation tactics.
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:10 AM
 
Location: The Raider Nation._ Our band kicks brass
1,854 posts, read 8,742,575 times
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Our baggage handlers used to think like that too. They voted out their union. Overnight, the company turned into a sweat shop. All of the part timers were fired. The 30 year full time guys were forced to work split shifts, and go to part time. They got pay cuts, and benefit cuts. Their lives instantly turned to crap. As soon as their two years were up, they went back to a union.

I'm a hard core conservative. I only support a union if the actual employees get together, and decide that they need a union. My company has proven that we need a union. It's especially important in a safety related job. The union is a backup to make sure that the company doesn't try to force you to sign the airworthiness of an unsafe airplane. Value Jet comes to mind.
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:44 AM
 
11,938 posts, read 21,528,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Storm View Post
Oh, almost like being a truck driver. You can only drive for so many hours and you have to do inspections, but you only get paid when the wheels are turning.

These pilots are permitted to fly I believe someone said 100 hours a month which is over $12,000 a month. I do not feel bad for them at all.

And, if they are a drinker? Are you really condoning that it is okay for a pilot to have a drink within 8 hours of flying? Did you know that a truck driver is not permitted to refuse roadside exercises and the legal limit is much less?

Fire them all.
To work 100 hours in a month your duty time approaches 300 hours. Double the office worker at 160 hours per month.

When was the last time you consecutively worked 16 hour days? For an entire month? While being gone from home for 20-22 days a month?

The pay you mention is for the CAs the FOs make much less. There are two pilots up front and both do not earn the same.

And $12,000 a month is low for the equipment being flown even for the CA. SWA CAs would make in the $20,000 per month range.
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:53 AM
 
11,938 posts, read 21,528,320 times
Reputation: 11714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Storm View Post
Granted, you need to stand your ground when you get the chance, but it comes to the time we are in, in this economy. When things are good, then I say go for it. The economy is not good right now. I think you are going to see some pilots out of work soon. Especially after I heard they were offered an increase, but not what they wanted.

I really hope Spirit comes out and fires them all. I am sure there are pilots there that will take the job in today's lack of a job market.
There was actually no increase. It was smoke and mirrors. They reconfigured how the yearly pay increases were triggered. For example a current 5 year guy would be back to year 2 or 3. And it would be tough to actually get another yearly pay increase if you have to call in sick just one month out of the year. So while there was a pay increase on paper (that the public sees) there really was no pay increase. In fact for many on property it would have been a pay cut to vote in the "final offer" from the company.
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