National body scanner opt-out day on Nov 24 (Cuba, packages, holiday)

[annerk]

Originally Posted by slackjaw

I'd submit I've seen far more of the world than you have. I do recall you being the one posting how you wouldn't dare be caught staying somewhere besides your nice hotels, sounds like a typical high budget naive traveler on the Frommers set.

To each their own. Just like many wouldn't dream of spending the money on a luxury cruise, others would never consider sleeping on a mat on a dirt floor in a hut with 13 other people. It doesn't mean that either point of view is wrong, it means that people know what their comfort levels are and follow them.

I would never backpack across Europe sleeping in hostels. I would be miserable. It doesn't mean that I'd miss anything, indeed I'd probably meet a whole different group of people that those who travel "cheap" would never have the opportunity to meet.

On our last vacation (which was what most would consider "upscale") we were invited into the homes of several amazing people who have lived extraordinary lives and accomplished extraordinary things--people that someone staying in a tent would never have had the opportunity to meet, let alone be invited to dine with.

My point is that just because someone prefers travel with some creature comforts, it doesn't mean that they simply board the bus at the front door of the Holiday Inn every morning for a week in order to get shuffled from tourist trap to tourist trap with 40 of their new best friends.

My next major vacation is to Italy. We'll taste wine from the barrel in a cellar with the winemaker at a few small wineries in Tuscany and take a private tour of the Accademia Gallery with the curator in Florence. And I'm just beginning to really put it together. Does this sound like sheeple tourists with their noses in Frommers? We'll also most likely stay at the Four Seasons while we're in Florence. Having new adventures is much nicer when you're well rested.

[slackjaw]

Originally Posted by MAK802

And you forgot to quote where we flew through SAN on Thanksgiving, where my husband always got stopped and I mentioned that they removed the scanner completely, it wasn't there when we flew. Since I don't go on business trips together,"we" haven't encountered scanners. He has before all this nonsense but they are no longer there.

Ahh so in your post claiming "we hadn't encountered scanners" it meant you guys have seen them, just not at exactly the same time together. LOL can you come up with any more of a feeble excuse for being a compulsive liar?

I guess now that you've been caught lying (again) we can all just agree that yet, you have seen the scanners and disregard the "we travel very frequently and have yet to see scanners in use." since you apparently are attempting to use a semantic nuance to misrepresent the truth.

For added fun, on your "No groping either" claim:

Originally Posted by MAK802

Eh, I guess I don't have body issues like most Americans. Last time I flew, I was pulled aside and patted down to the point where I thought she might start making out with me. It was quite the intimate experience! Doesn't bother me one bit.

I guess you mean you weren't groped together right? Compulsive lying is usually a sign of some deeper issues.

[annerk]

Originally Posted by slackjaw

Where does the TSA claim this? Are you just making up stuff again or do you have a link?

About a year ago when they first announced that they would be using ARRA money to deploy the units, Pistole made the rounds of all the major media outlets and stated emphatically that one of the ways they would ensure privacy was with same gender screeners looking at the images. He also downplayed how graphic the images would be, to the point that he implied that genitalia would be "blurred." Right...

[Yac]

A word of warning to all participating: if you disagree with someone, you are free to prove them wrong. What you cannot do is attack them and call them names. Unless you're 12 years old, but I assume since the forum requires one to be 16 or older, there are no 12 year olds here.
Now back on topic folks.
Yac.

[rogerbacon]

I think the campaign was a great success. It was never about slowing travelers down. It was about raising awareness, which it did very well. It was talked about almost nonstop on TV in the days leading up to Thanksgiving. Even on a normal day only a few percent of people are picked for the enhanced security or the stripsearch machines so even if everyone one opted out it wouldn't slow anything down. However, that wasn't how it was reported in the media and I'm glad because if reporters didn't think it would be a big inconvenience to people they probably wouldn't have reported it.

The TSA probably expected that within a year or so no one would be opting out. Now I think the American public is knowledgable about the scanners and there will be a large portion opting out if the scanners are ever fully implemented (which I am beginning to doubt they ever will be).

[nightbird47]

Originally Posted by rogerbacon

I think the campaign was a great success. It was never about slowing travelers down. It was about raising awareness, which it did very well. It was talked about almost nonstop on TV in the days leading up to Thanksgiving. Even on a normal day only a few percent of people are picked for the enhanced security or the stripsearch machines so even if everyone one opted out it wouldn't slow anything down. However, that wasn't how it was reported in the media and I'm glad because if reporters didn't think it would be a big inconvenience to people they probably wouldn't have reported it.

The TSA probably expected that within a year or so no one would be opting out. Now I think the American public is knowledgable about the scanners and there will be a large portion opting out if the scanners are ever fully implemented (which I am beginning to doubt they ever will be).

Pointing something else out. This isn't about just planes. The TSA is rolling out plans for trains and busses. I do not fly because of the security hastle, but love the train. If taking the train involved this choice then this is perfectly proper for concern to be expressed so this technology does not spread.

Another thing... the studies the government cites are all done by those with vested interest in the machines. One thing I check when reading about a product is who is making the reccomendation. If its someone who sells lots of them and would like to continue? The research done by independant labs is what matters since they have no personal stake in it and that is not yet in. This technology with elevated risk should not be deployed until several independant labs agree it is not harmful.

And what of those of us who if willing to go in a machine that shows you naked will simply have the abusive patdown because of a medical condition? Is it all right to single out a grooup who have no ties to terrorism? Have we become such good sheeple that if it doesn't bother us its not important?

So arguing about how often one flies, if at all, is not the point. I would love to travel on the train again. I who have not flown for quite awhile have just as big a stake in this as someone who flies every week.

[rogerbacon]

Originally Posted by nightbird47

Another thing... the studies the government cites are all done by those with vested interest in the machines. One thing I check when reading about a product is who is making the reccomendation. If its someone who sells lots of them and would like to continue? The research done by independant labs is what matters since they have no personal stake in it and that is not yet in.

Here is an analysis of the radiation the machines put out by someone who has studied cancer as a career. Review of the TSA X-ray backscatter body scanner safety report: hide your kids, hide your wife -- Big Brother -- Sott.net

Of particular note is the amount of radiation that is absorbed in the testes and how it is much higher than an overall level absorbed in the body. The TSA sites overall levels but that is meaningless if certain parts of the body absorb many times that amount of radiation.

"Of particular concern is radiation exposure to the testes, which could result in infertility or birth defects, and breasts for women who might carry a BRCA1 or BRCA2 mutation. Even more alarming is that because the radiation energy is the same for all adults, children or infants, the relative absorbed dose is twice as high for small children and infants because they have a smaller body mass (both total and tissue specific) to distribute the dose. Alarmingly, the radiation dose to an infant's testes and skeleton is 60-fold higher than the absorbed dose to an adult brain!"

[nightbird47]

Originally Posted by rogerbacon

Here is an analysis of the radiation the machines put out by someone who has studied cancer as a career. Review of the TSA X-ray backscatter body scanner safety report: hide your kids, hide your wife -- Big Brother -- Sott.net

Of particular note is the amount of radiation that is absorbed in the testes and how it is much higher than an overall level absorbed in the body. The TSA sites overall levels but that is meaningless if certain parts of the body absorb many times that amount of radiation.

"Of particular concern is radiation exposure to the testes, which could result in infertility or birth defects, and breasts for women who might carry a BRCA1 or BRCA2 mutation. Even more alarming is that because the radiation energy is the same for all adults, children or infants, the relative absorbed dose is twice as high for small children and infants because they have a smaller body mass (both total and tissue specific) to distribute the dose. Alarmingly, the radiation dose to an infant's testes and skeleton is 60-fold higher than the absorbed dose to an adult brain!"

Thanks for posting that. I had no idea where it had been posted before anymore but was thinking specifically of this one. They are lying for profit and power. Industry studies of products have LONG been deficient in real value dealing with hazards of products. Only if you have no finger in the pie, be it one of power or profit, can you be totally open to the possibilities.

Children should never go in these machines. Nor should adults but they can at least figure the risk. I have the feeling if the true risk was shown nobody would. That it is not absorbed generally but in specific places is very important and has not been mentioned in the industry types which simply measuer the dose.

And remember catscans... years ago they were the rage. Nobody knew just what was safe or how much they needed to use. When studies were done *years* later it was shown that sometimes ten times the necessary was used, and often the people running the machines did not know how to calibrate them. So you think some tsa flunkie who just managed a ged will figure it out, especially since they aren't trained?

So we can risk genetic damage or cancer or being molested or being thrown out of the airport or maybe just being arrested. You have to ask when is the risk worth the vacation?

[annerk]

An update--They were not in use this week in Orlando, Atlanta, or Charlotte on Tuesday or Friday. I suspect they have been permanantly shuttered (a very expensive cost to the taxpayers for an ill-conceived plan, but what else is new in Washington?) as I haven't seen them in use anywhere in going on three weeks now.

[nightbird47]

Originally Posted by annerk

An update--They were not in use this week in Orlando, Atlanta, or Charlotte on Tuesday or Friday. I suspect they have been permanantly shuttered (a very expensive cost to the taxpayers for an ill-conceived plan, but what else is new in Washington?) as I haven't seen them in use anywhere in going on three weeks now.

If they were shuttered during the travel time to Grandma's, makes sense that they would be when people are coming home. I delayed my trip back on amtrak a couple of years ago to the middle of the week over Sunday since the crush just before the holiday was a bit much. I suspect that the tsa and homeland security people did not expect the anger and outrage and may have not expected the behavior of their agents either. I hope these things are gone, but considering the investment I have my doubts. After all the holidays travel is done and the people who seldom fly (and would be telling their family how it was) are home we'll see what happens.

It would be good to know that people still can be mad enough to make a difference though.