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Old 07-29-2011, 04:12 PM
 
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
38,854 posts, read 20,162,577 times
Reputation: 35902

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerbacon View Post
How do you not have a driver's license? The only two reasons I can think that someone wouldn't havea driver's license is being underage or having a DUI conviction (and most of those people continue driving without the license anyway).
Although this is off-topic, I will address your question:

Reasons why folks do not have driver's licenses:
1. Underage
2. DUI/traffic convictions
3. Elderly person who no longer is able to drive
4. Person with a disability that limits their ability to drive
5. Vehicle is not a necessity to get around (such as folks living in NYC)
6. Folks who for various reasons have not been able to pass the driver's test (including me).
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:28 PM
 
26,590 posts, read 54,583,712 times
Reputation: 13019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatteress View Post
Everyone who fills up a plane is not a frequent flyer. If you are a frequent flyer, you often get perks and feebies which can reduce the price of your ticket.
Wrong. Many of my tickets are bought for last minute business travel. I often spend double or triple what the liesure travelers paid for the same ticket. The only freebie I get that actually saves me money is no cost to check a bag--something I seldom do anyhow. And like I said, anyone can gate check a roll on for free.

There are zero other perks that reduce the price of my ticket.

Quote:
Those of us who are NOT frequent flyers fly less frequently because the cost is prohibitive for the average person. Although you are not "rich", you seem to have more descritionary income than most Americans so what seems cheap for you is not necessarily cheap for the average Joe.
Again, just because you can't do so, it doesn't mean that the average person can't. I am able to buy the ticket at an affordable cost because I'm flexible with my travel dates, often fly at hideous times that no one else wants to fly (5:10 on a Saturday morning out of Orlando for example) buy in advance when there is a fare sale, etc. I don't think that the average person would have a problem spending $188 +tax to fly r/t someplace, which is about what my personal tickets have run me on average this year.
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:32 PM
 
4,919 posts, read 19,853,905 times
Reputation: 6215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatteress View Post
Uh ... Safety IS the most important concern but let's not forget about the cost, which is a major factor for the average flyer. Not everyone has money to throw around willy nilly.
O.K., I think i see the confusion.

It cost the airlines a certain amount of money to fly the passenegrs from point a to point b. The cost of the ticket you buy does not cover the cost to fly the passnegrs to that destination. They airlines hope that they make up the rest on cargo, fees, premium ticketing, and last minute ticketing, but thats not the case all the time and they do loose on the trip.

They can;t raise the fares too much higher because most people buy soley on the base price advertised. if Airline A charged $200 for a seat plus $20 for a checked bag, and $10 for a meal, and $5 for a soda, and $20 for extra leg room, if Airline B charged $225 but included all those service in their price, passenegrs who have a checked bag, will want a meal & soda, and want extra leg room will all be flocking to Airline A because of the low base price, even though Airline B will be cheaper for them. You will even have passenegrs who want and will pay for all that extar service complaing that Airline B is too expensive, a rip off, etc even though their price will be much lower. That's the reality of airline passnegers.

because of that, airlines respond to customer wishes and artificially keep their base prices below actual cost otherwise they risk passnegers flooding the other airline, even to the point of altering trip plans to save a few dollars when they are really spending more.

So the airline compensate for the low prices by reducing service accordingly. To you it may be $200 for the ticket and you expect a certain level of service. You may not even be paying for the cost to cover using the bathroom, but you expect it. You are not paying the cost to hire nice FA's but you expect it. You are not paying for the cost of them cleaning the aircraft, but you expect it. based ont he rpice, they should require you to jump out the plane as it taxis and you have to walk to the terminal.

To you the passenger, this is a reduction of service because you assumed that your entitled to a certain level because you paid (in your mind) good money. But to the airline, they are going way beyond what you paid for. If you went bought a hamburger from a resturant for 10 cents do you really expect to get Peter Luger service or Joe the Hot Dog Cart man service? Because that 10 cents is a heafty amount you sayingt hat you should at least get Applebees service. But you only paid 10 cents so your entiltles to 10 cents service regardless if thats a big amount to you based on your budget. You are entitle to the service you bought and you are buying an expensive service (air travel) but paying cheap rates.

Although that ticket from Atlanta to Los Angeles is high in your book, it will only cover you from Atlanta to Oklahoma City at the level of service you espect. But since your going all the way to LA for that price, something has to give and that may have to be the high level of service you expect. If people stopped whinning and complaing whenever airlines raise prices to cover cost, you will get the service you want, the leg room you desire, the quality of respect from the people, but expect to pay 3 times the fare your being charged now.

So which of the three is it going to be?
1. the fare your paying now for the service your getting now?
OR
2. Three times the fare and the service level you want?
OR
3. You get the service you want at the price your paying now, but hitchhike from Oaklahoma City to LA?
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:41 PM
 
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
38,854 posts, read 20,162,577 times
Reputation: 35902
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
Wrong. Many of my tickets are bought for last minute business travel. I often spend double or triple what the liesure travelers paid for the same ticket. The only freebie I get that actually saves me money is no cost to check a bag--something I seldom do anyhow. And like I said, anyone can gate check a roll on for free.

There are zero other perks that reduce the price of my ticket.



Again, just because you can't do so, it doesn't mean that the average person can't. I am able to buy the ticket at an affordable cost because I'm flexible with my travel dates, often fly at hideous times that no one else wants to fly (5:10 on a Saturday morning out of Orlando for example) buy in advance when there is a fare sale, etc. I don't think that the average person would have a problem spending $188 +tax to fly r/t someplace, which is about what my personal tickets have run me on average this year.
If you can afford to spend double or triple the cost of an average ticket, then you must have more disposable income, which might explain why you can't relate to the concerns that I've expressed.

There are limited options of places that I can fly to out of LAX for $188 + tax outside of my huge state - Often, plane tickets cost me at least $300 and up. I wished that I could fly at 5:10am in the morning but due to my lack of transportation options (I don't drive), that isn't an option. My dates are only as flexible as the time I have off from work so I have limited options there. As a school employee, I'm often off during peak travel seasons which poses another challenge in getting a cheaper coach ticket. I just wish that I could find flights that were under $300 round trip to the places that I want to visit but that is nearly impossible given my circumstances. I just wish that airlines offer more pricing options and flexibility in terms of cancellations, which would help me in buying a ticket further in advance. In order to have that flexibility, there is a higher cost involved and that is something I just cannot afford.
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:50 PM
 
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
38,854 posts, read 20,162,577 times
Reputation: 35902
Quote:
Originally Posted by PacificFlights View Post
O.K., I think i see the confusion.

It cost the airlines a certain amount of money to fly the passenegrs from point a to point b. The cost of the ticket you buy does not cover the cost to fly the passnegrs to that destination. They airlines hope that they make up the rest on cargo, fees, premium ticketing, and last minute ticketing, but thats not the case all the time and they do loose on the trip.

They can;t raise the fares too much higher because most people buy soley on the base price advertised. if Airline A charged $200 for a seat plus $20 for a checked bag, and $10 for a meal, and $5 for a soda, and $20 for extra leg room, if Airline B charged $225 but included all those service in their price, passenegrs who have a checked bag, will want a meal & soda, and want extra leg room will all be flocking to Airline A because of the low base price, even though Airline B will be cheaper for them. You will even have passenegrs who want and will pay for all that extar service complaing that Airline B is too expensive, a rip off, etc even though their price will be much lower. That's the reality of airline passnegers.

because of that, airlines respond to customer wishes and artificially keep their base prices below actual cost otherwise they risk passnegers flooding the other airline, even to the point of altering trip plans to save a few dollars when they are really spending more.

So the airline compensate for the low prices by reducing service accordingly. To you it may be $200 for the ticket and you expect a certain level of service. You may not even be paying for the cost to cover using the bathroom, but you expect it. You are not paying the cost to hire nice FA's but you expect it. You are not paying for the cost of them cleaning the aircraft, but you expect it. based ont he rpice, they should require you to jump out the plane as it taxis and you have to walk to the terminal.

To you the passenger, this is a reduction of service because you assumed that your entitled to a certain level because you paid (in your mind) good money. But to the airline, they are going way beyond what you paid for. If you went bought a hamburger from a resturant for 10 cents do you really expect to get Peter Luger service or Joe the Hot Dog Cart man service? Because that 10 cents is a heafty amount you sayingt hat you should at least get Applebees service. But you only paid 10 cents so your entiltles to 10 cents service regardless if thats a big amount to you based on your budget. You are entitle to the service you bought and you are buying an expensive service (air travel) but paying cheap rates.

Although that ticket from Atlanta to Los Angeles is high in your book, it will only cover you from Atlanta to Oklahoma City at the level of service you espect. But since your going all the way to LA for that price, something has to give and that may have to be the high level of service you expect. If people stopped whinning and complaing whenever airlines raise prices to cover cost, you will get the service you want, the leg room you desire, the quality of respect from the people, but expect to pay 3 times the fare your being charged now.

So which of the three is it going to be?
1. the fare your paying now for the service your getting now?
OR
2. Three times the fare and the service level you want?
OR
3. You get the service you want at the price your paying now, but hitchhike from Oaklahoma City to LA?
You mean to tell me that $300+ coach tickets x number of passengers flying in coach do not cover the expenses of having a bathroom on board and civil flight attendants? I rarely ever see coach tickets for $200 or less so don't know where you are getting your figures from unless you expect me to stay on the West Coast. You may have failed to read my previous post but I can either pay for my food on-board or bring my own for flights that are 6-hours or less so why do you keep bringing up food? Since I am petite, the leg room isn't as much of an issue as for other taller coach passengers. Just because you are a certain height, does not automatically mean that you can afford a higher cost ticket for extra leg room.

All I need is more affordable flight options, more flexibility in terms of cancellations and courteous FA service. That's ALL I'm asking for. I don't need a free meal on fancy china that the first class customers receive or that extra wide seat that you would find in first-class. Frankly, that isn't anywhere near worth the higher price of a first-class ticket.
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Dublin, CA
3,813 posts, read 3,656,997 times
Reputation: 3967
Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
Because the airline industry treats its passengers like cattle.
Isn't that what you are? I get on an airplane to take me from point A to point B. For me, and I used to work for United Airlines, that is their SOLE purpose. Get me where I am going. I don't care about food, drinks, and to a certain extent, comfort. All I truly care about is the fact they get me where I am going and in one piece. I can have all the "fun" I want, when I am at my destination.

Most people fly in "Economy" class, because its affordable. Yes, it is. However, because you are doing so, you should learn not to expect the world, nor are you entitled to the world.

Again, all I want is a seat, a sober flight crew, and a plane that is mechanically sound. Anything above all that is pure gravy.
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Old 07-29-2011, 05:02 PM
 
26,590 posts, read 54,583,712 times
Reputation: 13019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatteress View Post
If you can afford to spend double or triple the cost of an average ticket, then you must have more disposable income, which might explain why you can't relate to the concerns that I've expressed.
Did you read what I wrote? Busines travel. I'm not spending that, the company is. of course it's my company, but it's built into the price of doing business. When I book a flight on my dime, I try to find the lowest fare I can by flying off times, etc.

Quote:
There are limited options of places that I can fly to out of LAX for $188 + tax outside of my huge state - Often, plane tickets cost me at least $300 and up. I wished that I could fly at 5:10am in the morning but due to my lack of transportation options (I don't drive), that isn't an option.
That is not the airlines problem, not should your fare be subsidized because of it.

Quote:
My dates are only as flexible as the time I have off from work so I have limited options there. As a school employee, I'm often off during peak travel seasons which poses another challenge in getting a cheaper coach ticket.
If you buy them quite a while in advance, it's quite easy to do. For personal travel I often book six months or more out.

Quote:
I just wish that I could find flights that were under $300 round trip to the places that I want to visit but that is nearly impossible given my circumstances. I just wish that airlines offer more pricing options and flexibility in terms of cancellations, which would help me in buying a ticket further in advance. In order to have that flexibility, there is a higher cost involved and that is something I just cannot afford.
I wish I could find tickets that were under $300 to the destinations I'd like to visit--like Europe or Hawaii, but guess what? It is what it is, and I don't expect the airlines to offer me any special deals because I don't want to or can't afford the cost of the ticket. There's no reason you can't buy a ticket in advance, you have the school calender by mid-August at the latest, so there's no reason you can't book a trip for next summer as soon as you get it to take advantage of low fares.
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Old 07-29-2011, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
2,884 posts, read 5,179,162 times
Reputation: 2726
Quote:
Originally Posted by MINresident View Post
Actually quite a lot. There are frequent flyers who spend hours trying to figure out which airline to go with as they often fly upward of 50,000 miles a year. They look at mileage program benefits for elites, access to flights where they live, quality of first class seats, and chances at upgrading. Although most Americans consider Delta and United to equally suck, most frequent business travelers have a preference. And quite to the contrary in coach class, there is a revolution going on in first class as airlines try to revamp meals, add lie flat seats, upgrade entertainment, and improve the frequent flyer program. The airlines will reward you if you fly with them a lot.
The problem is, who do they really cater to? I see an awful lot of students on flights, families, those 50-65 years old, etc. If you put the average family in an airplane and covered up the signs....could they really tell if they were on a delta or united flight? Probably not.

Everything looks pretty much the same...overhead bins, seats, aisles, food trays, etc. The service is the same.

Quote:

Airlines have tried simplified pricing and have been undercut. Again, not a problem but when people stop flying your airline because the other guys undercuts by $5, you have a problem. Yes, some elites will pay extra for their airline choice but the reality is that most Americans don't care. Most industries are becoming more complex in their pricing (like telecommunications, airlines) because the number one goal to appeal to Americans to have the lowest price. Remember, you and every other American decides what the company provides. If we boycotted companies that exported jobs, they would change their ways. Same thing with the airlines. Sadly, most consumers today don't think about the implications of their purchasing decisions on future moves by the company or industry.



Airlines still serve meals on international flights. On domestic flights of two to three hours, I can't see why people can't go a few hours without a hot meal or buy a meal before they depart from a company (Applebees) that has less costs affected by providing food.. Again though, it comes down to prices. When the legacy carriers were full service, they served meals. But they were undercut by carriers like Southwest which prompted people to choose Southwest. Well, what do you think Delta is going to do, run themselves out of business?

Remember, the airlines have huge costs associated with bringing food onboard as I mentioned in my first post.
-> they have to establish a contract with a catering company, raising costs
-> they have to increase the turn-around times of their airplanes to put more stuff onboard, reducing the productivity of the airplane, raising costs
-> they have to employ extra workers to put this food onboard (remember, they already pay pilots, flight attendants, management, mechanics, cleaning crews, customer service, gate agents, baggage handlers...) and take the waste off.
-> they have to pay in extra fuel by carrying meals for 2 flights (one away from the hub and one back to the hub) which adds up to millions of dollars a year.

A 5 dollar meal quickly becomes 25 dollar meal. Now, next time you go on Expedia and see airline A charging $285 (with no meal) and airline B charging $310 (free meal), who will you take?

Remember that most airlines offer you snack boxes or sandwhiches for purchase. It's all about making the industry a pay-for-use industry where fares are kept as low as possible and people pay for that which they want.

As consumers get more price senstive, the airlines will continue to simplify what you are paying for. Eventually, it may just be a seat from point A to point B. I see a day when milwage programs may be eliminated and even free drink service. Somebody will undercut the competition...
The food issue I think is more about *thinking of the customer*. We live in convenience culture. I.e., 24 hour convenience stores, 7-11, pharmacies open late, etc.

But you don't really get that convenience on an airline...i.e. no hot food on a 2 or 3 hour trip. Also consider, many airports don't have good food. What if you get to an airport 2 hours early, little to eat. Then a 2-3 hour flight. At LAX all they have is burger king and starbucks basically. I think the legacies need a different business model.

I don't expect a gourmet meal, but the "food", is basically the end of the barrel. Very few people would line up for it if were sold at a mall foodcourt. It's part of the "cattle" experience. You're not really treated like a person, per se, but more like this person is going to get a $6 sandwich that costs us $4. You become a dollar sign (i.e. this person is negative $5 to us). Its very impersonal.

You can check the website or call ahead to see whats going on, but its still very erratic. Who knows what its going to look like in 6 months or a year. Are they going to charge for drinks in a year? Maybe.

The changes don't create loyalty or comfort. When are price increases (for little or no reason) ever good for a business?

-Another problem. None of the airlines really have anything proprietary. Like frequent flier programs. Its not proprietary, the way windows is to microsoft. Or like google's search algorithm.

The fact that everything has become standardized + the huge costs involved in running an airline = very slim profits/economics.

*About food again*

I know some flights are only 2-3 hours. But people spend 2-3 hours in a nice/decent restaurant. Its not a short amount of time. Consider that many families don't eat out. The bare bones/low cost approach (targeted to say, 30% of the flyers) hurts the other 70 who only fly once or twice a year.
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Old 07-29-2011, 05:15 PM
 
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
38,854 posts, read 20,162,577 times
Reputation: 35902
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post


I wish I could find tickets that were under $300 to the destinations I'd like to visit--like Europe or Hawaii, but guess what? It is what it is, and I don't expect the airlines to offer me any special deals because I don't want to or can't afford the cost of the ticket. There's no reason you can't buy a ticket in advance, you have the school calender by mid-August at the latest, so there's no reason you can't book a trip for next summer as soon as you get it to take advantage of low fares.
The only guaranteed days I have off are the two weeks for Christmas/New Years ... The rest of the year, I cannot plan far in advance as I don't get my schedules that early. We are open year round except for those two weeks in December. I can estimate when I'll likely to have time off and purchase an advanced ticket but I may get called in at the last minute due to the fact that I work as an adjunct employee with no paid vacations. I travel when I can squeeze it into my schedule. Yes, this isn't the airlines issue but this is just typical of the struggles that average folks face when trying to plan a trip. I just wish that there were more affordable travel options without paying $300 for a 2.5 hour flight or $500-600 for a 5-6 hour flight.

BTW: I know you try to locate the cheapest tickets as possible but at least you could write off the flights as a business expense for those you do for business related purposes ...
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Old 07-29-2011, 05:18 PM
 
26,590 posts, read 54,583,712 times
Reputation: 13019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatteress View Post
You mean to tell me that $300+ coach tickets x number of passengers flying in coach do not cover the expenses of having a bathroom on board and civil flight attendants?
Are you trying to say there's no bathroom on a plane? The ONLY plane I've ever been on without a bathroom was a very small regional jet that was in the air for 20 minutes. We were all told prior to boarding that there was no bathroom or beverage service.

Quote:
I rarely ever see coach tickets for $200 or less so don't know where you are getting your figures from unless you expect me to stay on the West Coast. You may have failed to read my previous post but I can either pay for my food on-board or bring my own for flights that are 6-hours or less so why do you keep bringing up food? Since I am petite, the leg room isn't as much of an issue as for other taller coach passengers. Just because you are a certain height, does not automatically mean that you can afford a higher cost ticket for extra leg room.
I just found r/t LAX to BOS, Washington, and Atlanta for under $300 in August from LAX with a three minute search. There are plenty of deals, you've just got to bother to look for them.

Quote:
All I need is more affordable flight options, more flexibility in terms of cancellations and courteous FA service. That's ALL I'm asking for. I don't need a free meal on fancy china that the first class customers receive or that extra wide seat that you would find in first-class. Frankly, that isn't anywhere near worth the higher price of a first-class ticket.
I'm not sure the big to-do about cancellations. Just book when you know you can travel. The alternate is flying Southwest.
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