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Old 09-26-2012, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,403 posts, read 21,192,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastphilly View Post
The lack of foreign carriers with the exception of a few proves that theory. Even those few (Air France, British Airways, KLM, Korean Air) wouldn't be serving ATL if not for the generated traffic supplied by partnership with Delta.
Thats a big generalization.

ATL-Seoul is a large enough O&D market that it could be served by Korean Air with minimal connections on the Seoul end. In fact Atlanta-Seoul is more than twice the size of the Houston-Tokyo local market.

British Airways has no connection to Delta and would serve Atlanta regardless of Delta.

ATL-Paris is definately large enough to warrant a daily flight with or without Delta. Air France would be there regardless.

ATL-Amsterdam in itself is not a huge local market, but with the massive hub at Amsterdam it would have no problem retaining service.

In honesty, Atlanta could support British Airways, Lufthansa, Air France, and KLM with no Delta hub. Korean Air would be its sole link to Asia with no Delta hub. Atlanta-Europe O&D is around 500,000 yearly O&D passengers. Thats about 1370 passengers a day.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Nob Hill, San Francisco, CA
2,346 posts, read 3,380,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastphilly View Post
No, China Eastern isn't "Still There". They will resume Service (April 26, 2013) after many years of pulling out. That is why I was confused..lol.
I've never used China Eastern before in my life but have always heard about how awful its service is from other Chinese folks in China.
Quote:
I see your point about Miami. About 75% of all foreign metal is from one region. Still the shear volume of international O&D blows away the likes of Dallas, Boston,Houston, Denver, etc.
I agree. I think Miami is an impressive gateway to the Latin and European hemisphere. I admire how its market is well above demand and can sustain itself even though it has a limited service region. I wouldn't discount it as a major O&D market but I just don't think its up there with NYC, LA, San Francisco, Chicago, and DC despite it having the numbers. Those other 5 are the best rounded international gateways from all over the world in the US and Miami is just not. Miami would be the first in the next tier but that's as good of a rating as its going to get from me until it gets a wider coverage market.
Quote:
Atlanta is definately the last piece of the bottom tier. Delta could have their hub in Anytown, USA and they would still have international flights. The majority of ATL international traffic is generated by connecting passengers not by O&D from the Atlanta area. The lack of foreign carriers with the exception of a few proves that theory. Even those few (Air France, British Airways, KLM, Korean Air) wouldn't be serving ATL if not for the generated traffic supplied by partnership with Delta.
I haven't ever been to Atlanta so I wont rip on it, from what I know looks like a beautiful city IMO. However I don't know how to place it, I know its one of the larger immigration hubs and in top 10 or 11 with the other cities I mentioned in the second tier but I don't know enough about it to tell you where its air route market should be catapulted. I don't know anything about its demand markets either.

Last edited by scrantiX; 09-26-2012 at 03:51 PM..
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:48 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
1,366 posts, read 1,360,046 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justme02 View Post
Thats a big generalization.

ATL-Seoul is a large enough O&D market that it could be served by Korean Air with minimal connections on the Seoul end. In fact Atlanta-Seoul is more than twice the size of the Houston-Tokyo local market.

British Airways has no connection to Delta and would serve Atlanta regardless of Delta.

ATL-Paris is definately large enough to warrant a daily flight with or without Delta. Air France would be there regardless.

ATL-Amsterdam in itself is not a huge local market, but with the massive hub at Amsterdam it would have no problem retaining service.

In honesty, Atlanta could support British Airways, Lufthansa, Air France, and KLM with no Delta hub. Korean Air would be its sole link to Asia with no Delta hub. Atlanta-Europe O&D is around 500,000 yearly O&D passengers. Thats about 1370 passengers a day.
I take you on the British Airways and your most likely right since British flys to lower tier markets like Denver and San Diego. Air France would not be flying to ATL if not for Delta Period!! Even Dallas which is a much bigger market than Atlanta coudn't support Air France once Delta gave up their Dallas hub. To say Air France would be serving ATL without Delta is a pipe dream. Same goes for KLM.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:51 PM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,152,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastphilly View Post
I take you on the British Airways and your most likely right since British flys to lower tier markets like Denver and San Diego. Air France would not be flying to ATL if not for Delta Period!! Even Dallas which is a much bigger market than Atlanta coudn't support Air France once Delta gave up their Dallas hub. To say Air France would be serving ATL without Delta is a pipe dream. Same goes for KLM.

Isnt the Air France ATL flight on Delta equipment. Conversly the Delta Paris flight from Philly uses Air France Equipment. Not sure how that works - the code share is different for flights depending on the carrier you book the flight through
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:54 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
Isnt the Air France ATL flight on Delta equipment. Conversly the Delta Paris flight from Philly uses Air France Equipment. Not sure how that works - the code share is different for flights depending on the carrier you book the flight through
There is Air France metal flying into Hartsfield/Jackson.

Air France is a partnered airline with Delta. So Air France is able to get the domestic feed that Delta provides from it's massive hub in Atlanta. It's the same situation with Qantas at DFW. If not for the American Airlines partnership, DFW wouldn't sniff a Qantas flight.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,403 posts, read 21,192,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastphilly View Post
I take you on the British Airways and your most likely right since British flys to lower tier markets like Denver and San Diego. Air France would not be flying to ATL if not for Delta Period!! Even Dallas which is a much bigger market than Atlanta coudn't support Air France once Delta gave up their Dallas hub. To say Air France would be serving ATL without Delta is a pipe dream. Same goes for KLM.
Not true. Atlanta-Paris is a larger local market than Dallas-Paris. Not by a large margin, but it is larger.

Air France could not compete with American on the Dallas-Paris route which is why they are not there anymore. Dallas-Paris has a daily year round flight on American which is what the market demands with no hub on the Paris end to feed the flight. I actually flew it yesterday from Paris back to DFW.

Atlanta-Paris and Dallas-Paris are both large enough for one flight to Paris year round. With no connection at the Atlanta end, somebody would be flying Atlanta-Paris.

Sorry man, but I work in the airline industry and I have seen the data which supports what I am saying. This is not something Im mistaken on. Atlanta-Europe is 1370 passenger per day originating or destined for Atlanta. Thats enough to fill 6-7 daily flights to Europe with no connections in Atlanta. The largest local markets are London, Germany (mainly Frankfurt and to a lesser degree Munich and Suttgart), and Paris. Those destinations can support service to Atlanta regardless of what Delta does. That is not to say that connections on the London, Frankfurt, or Paris end shouldnt be considered but I am not considering connections on the Atlanta end when making these statements.

I hypothosize that Atlanta could support KLM service based on connections, however thats more debatable. Atlanta-Amsterdam is not a huge market.
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Old 09-26-2012, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Nob Hill, San Francisco, CA
2,346 posts, read 3,380,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justme02 View Post
Sorry man, but I work in the airline industry and I have seen the data which supports what I am saying. This is not something Im mistaken on.
Do you have any future knowledge of international services being added in the near future to any of the 16 markets of this thread? Or any foreign interest in these markets?

Like I mentioned before, I consider myself an airport aficionado and would always love to know more about them. To me, as a person, having the ability to go to any corner of the world because the service is supported by your city's own airport is a privilege IMO.
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Old 09-26-2012, 04:18 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
1,366 posts, read 1,360,046 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justme02 View Post
Not true. Atlanta-Paris is a larger local market than Dallas-Paris. Not by a large margin, but it is larger.

Air France could not compete with American on the Dallas-Paris route which is why they are not there anymore. Dallas-Paris has a daily year round flight on American which is what the market demands with no hub on the Paris end to feed the flight. I actually flew it yesterday from Paris back to DFW.

Atlanta-Paris and Dallas-Paris are both large enough for one flight to Paris year round. With no connection at the Atlanta end, somebody would be flying Atlanta-Paris.

Sorry man, but I work in the airline industry and I have seen the data which supports what I am saying. This is not something Im mistaken on. Atlanta-Europe is 1370 passenger per day originating or destined for Atlanta. Thats enough to fill 6-7 daily flights to Europe with no connections in Atlanta. The largest local markets are London, Germany (mainly Frankfurt and to a lesser degree Munich and Suttgart), and Paris. Those destinations can support service to Atlanta regardless of what Delta does. That is not to say that connections on the London, Frankfurt, or Paris end shouldnt be considered but I am not considering connections on the Atlanta end when making these statements.

I hypothosize that Atlanta could support KLM service based on connections, however thats more debatable. Atlanta-Amsterdam is not a huge market.
Atlanta has about 160,000 pax anually flying to Europe more than Dallas. If broken down daily thats around 400. For you to say that the 400 more are majority Paris bound flights only is laughable. Even half that 400 which is a generous number isn't going to Paris and even if it was it would not sustain an Air France flight year 'round with Delta offering the same service. Oh, my girlfriend also works in the airline industry.

Air France could not compete with American because the domestic feed dried up. The same would happen to Air France in ATL if they switched to another alliance.
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Old 09-26-2012, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,403 posts, read 21,192,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastphilly View Post
Atlanta has about 160,000 pax anually flying to Europe more than Dallas. If broken down daily thats around 400. For you to say that the 400 more are majority Paris bound flights only is laughable. Even half that 400 which is a generous number isn't going to Paris and even if it was it would not sustain an Air France flight year 'round with Delta offering the same service. Oh, my girlfriend also works in the airline industry.

Air France could not compete with American because the domestic feed dried up. The same would happen to Air France in ATL if they switched to another alliance.
I dont know what your girlfriend does, but she isnt feeding you good data. I work with data from traffic flows constantly so I feel quite confident in what Im saying.

Atlanta-Europe is larger than Dallas-Europe, but not by 160k passengers. The actual number varies from 80k-100k per year. Houston-Europe is slightly larger than Atlanta-Europe but is heavily biased toward the UK and Amsterdam. Houston-Amsterdam is the highest yielding local market to Europe from all the Southern states.

When did I say the difference in passengers from Atlanta-Europe vs. Dallas-Europe was majority into the Paris market? Europe is a lot larger than Paris. American and Air France duked it out in the Paris-Dallas market for a bit knowing only one of them would make it in that market. In the end, the market was more important for American than it was for Air France. Even if the AA hub left Dallas, Dallas-Paris is large enough for a carrier to fly especially when considering connections at the Paris end.

Atlanta could support a flight to Paris regardless especially when considering connections on the Paris end of the flight. Period. Thats the argument Ive been making the whole time.
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Old 09-26-2012, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Glendale, CA
1,298 posts, read 2,111,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrantiX View Post
To all my fellow airport, airplane, air route aficionados out there. This threads for you!


LA 40 foreign flag carriers (LAX, ONT, BUR, SNA, LGB)- Aeroflot, Aeroméxico, Air Berlin, Air Canada, Air China, Air France, Air New Zealand, Air Pacific, Air Tahiti Nui, Alitalia, All Nippon Airways, Arkefly, Asiana Airlines, British Airways, Cathay Pacific, China Airlines, China Eastern Airlines, China Southern Airlines, Copa Airlines, El Al, Emirates, EVA Air, Iberia, Japan Airlines, KLM, Korean Air, LAN Airlines, Lufthansa, Malaysia Airlines, Philippine Airlines, Qantas, Singapore Airlines, Swiss International Air Lines, TACA Airlines, Thai Airways International, Transaero, Turkish Airlines, Virgin International Airways, Volaris, WestJet, and Interjet.


Any confirmed plans for additional foreign flag carriers in any of these markets or any new international services? Please reply with only confirmed information, thanks.
Hey scrantiX! Cool thread, as I'm an aviation nut.

Some slight corrections/additions to your LAX list:
  • There are actually two separate LAN airlines flying to LAX: LAN Chile and LAN Peru
  • Add Avianca (Colombia)
  • Add LACSA (El Salvador and Costa Rica)
  • There are two separate int'l Virgin branded carriers serving LAX: Virgin Australia and Virgin Atlantic. While they both have a Virgin "brand" they are two separate carriers.
  • See for reference: LAX Airlines
So in total there are 45 different foreign flag carriers serving the LA area (after Interjet begins SNA service on Oct. 11th).
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