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Old 09-26-2012, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Greater Boston
342 posts, read 482,614 times
Reputation: 61

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Why would any half sane airline add service to detroit right now? it kinda lost a quarter of its people in 10 years. i guess its probably far fetched that china eastern would fly to beijing from boston when their hub is in shanghai. theres probably not enough demand between the two cities.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:37 PM
 
3,722 posts, read 3,877,834 times
Reputation: 2774
Quote:
Originally Posted by deh74 View Post
Why would any half sane airline add service to detroit right now? it kinda lost a quarter of its people in 10 years. i guess its probably far fetched that china eastern would fly to beijing from boston when their hub is in shanghai. theres probably not enough demand between the two cities.
Detroit has a large Middle Eastern community. There's a reason Royal Jordanian serves the airport.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Greater Boston
342 posts, read 482,614 times
Reputation: 61
oh yeah, forgot about royal jordanian...and the middle eastern crowd....
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:47 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
1,366 posts, read 1,360,046 times
Reputation: 859
Quote:
Originally Posted by justme02 View Post
You keep misinterpreting everything I write. Never once did I compare Atlanta-Paris with Houston-Amsterdam and Im mystified that you somehow got that from my post. Ill try one more time:

Yes, I remember the Delta hub quite well. However, you are not comparing apples to apples.

When Delta had a hub at DFW, Air France and American both flew DFW-Paris. Both the airlines were competing and did not have cooperation of any kind beyond the usual interline and ticketing agreements. The Dallas-Paris market is not large enough to support two carriers that do not cooperate, but is large enough to support one. Therefore it boiled down to who the market was most important to. Air France know that Delta was second fiddle in Dallas to American and knew the the hub was bleeding money from every end. Therefore they pulled it knowing they could not compete with American who was doing very well on the route.

At present day Atlanta, Air France and Delta are very close partners. You dont have two carriers competing for the market, but rather two carriers with a joint venture balancing each other out. If Delta closed up their hub, the local market does not go away but there is no other carrier that could fly Atlanta to Paris and (as I keep repeating) when considering connections on the Paris end, service to Atlanta is very, very easy to support. The local market is 120 passengers per day by itself. When you throw in connections in Paris to other destinations in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East, it would be extremely easy to profitably fill a plane with 200 seats.

Now, let me try to get this through another way. My job focuses on Southern Air markets so Im going to use specific numbers. Ill use Atlanta and Dallas for my example since weve been talking about them:

In both markets, the largest three European markets are London, Frankfurt, and Paris. Atlanta-London is about 250 PDEW and Dallas-London is about 210 PDEW. Atlanta-Paris is about 120 PDEW and Dallas Paris is about 105 PDEW. Atlanta-Frankfurt is about 95 PDEW and Dallas-Frankfurt is about 100 PDEW.

Atlanta has roughly 1370 passengers a day to Europe. Dallas has about 1175 passengers a day to Europe. For beyond connections, Dallas to the Indian subcontinent and Middle East is about 800 passengers per day and Atlanta to the Indian subcontinent and Middle East is about 500 passengers per day. Ill leave Africa out.

If no hubs existed in Atlanta or Dallas yet the local market is the same size, HOW DO YOU SUPPOSE WE SERVE THESE LOCAL MARKET? We 1150-1400 passengers in these markets that need to travel to Europe. How can you not see that it makes most sense to route them through hubs that require the least connections?

With hubs in London, Paris, and Frankfurt, flights from these markets can be supported. Period. Ill grant you beyond that, I cant make an argument for either.
Maybe you don't understand what I am trying to get across to you. I will try to spell this out as clearly as possible. If Air France was not partnered with Delta would Air France offer service in Atlanta? The answer is NO for the same reason why it could not survive in Dallas (and yes Air France stayed in Dallas AFTER Delta pulled out and they lost money because they could not compete with American the same way they couldn't compete with Delta if both airlines were in competition at ATL). Of course Air France would fly to Atlanta if there was no Delta hub. What I am trying to get across is Atlanta could not support two competing carriers vying for ATL-CDG.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Nob Hill, San Francisco, CA
2,346 posts, read 3,380,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deh74 View Post
I know that United airlines is adding a flight from denver to Tokyo soon.
Yeah I know about that one to Tokyo-Narita, it will debut their brand new first in class 787 series planes that they just got a hold of.

I'm jealous because those planes will be a million times better from the specifications I've seen for them.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Greater Boston
342 posts, read 482,614 times
Reputation: 61
ya im jealous of the cities with 787 service too, id rather fly in a 787 than in a 747 or maybe a380
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Nob Hill, San Francisco, CA
2,346 posts, read 3,380,515 times
Reputation: 1080
Lufthansa is expanding A380 service into a few markets. Those are great models too IMO. Next gen 787's just demolish the competition but only a few markets are getting to see them. I think the bay, Denver, Newark, and Houston from United.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Greater Boston
342 posts, read 482,614 times
Reputation: 61
would one of those markets happen to be Boston?
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:58 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
1,366 posts, read 1,360,046 times
Reputation: 859
Quote:
Originally Posted by deh74 View Post
ya im jealous of the cities with 787 service too, id rather fly in a 787 than in a 747 or maybe a380
I'm sure a 787 is alot better to fly in, but from a outside observer, the 747-400 is a more majestic bird. All these new planes are too quiet. Even a 747-400 is quiet compared to the old 727's I remember flying out of SFO when I was a kid in the late 70's/early 80's.

I seen a 727 cargo plane about a week ago fly out and it had those disgusting hush kits!
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:04 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
1,366 posts, read 1,360,046 times
Reputation: 859
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrantiX View Post
Lufthansa is expanding A380 service into a few markets. Those are great models too IMO. Next gen 787's just demolish the competition but only a few markets are getting to see them. I think the bay, Denver, Newark, and Houston from United.
787's will be used on lower volume long haul routes. Many of the secondary cities like Denver, Dallas, Twin Cities, etc. could see carriers that were not imaginable before serving those cities in the coming years. For example, Cathay Pacific could never fly a 747-400 into DFW and be profitable, but a 787 is feasible.
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