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Old 10-10-2014, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Savannah GA/Lk Hopatcong NJ
13,106 posts, read 24,883,519 times
Reputation: 11146

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefragile View Post
I don't get what the problem is. Were you bit? No? The dog & person were removed. End of story. Move on.
This is a discussion forum related to travel. What is your issue with people discussing this?
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Old 10-10-2014, 08:57 AM
 
Location: A tropical island
4,566 posts, read 4,435,043 times
Reputation: 11220
Quote:
Originally Posted by apexgds View Post
I've never understood this. How is it any different than requiring a handicapped placard or plates when parking your car?
I feel the same way. This topic has been discussed in the Dogs forum of CD, and generated quite a bit if heat!

When I asked why service dog owners weren't required to have some official documentation (for the purpose of preventing fraud, and protecting the integrity of the system for truly disabled, NOT for the purpose of invading the disabled person's right to medical privacy), you would have thought I was Evil Incarnate. It's NOT a popular proposal among actual service dog owners (nor among fakers, obviously! And who can tell the difference?!?! And that utter lack of distinction is precisely the problem!!!)

I feel really bad for store and restaurant owners. They have to simply take someone's word for it, if a customer says it's a service dog. It is illegal to ask anything beyond the two specific questions allowed by ADA. But if they let in fake service dogs, they risk problems with Board of Health, or lawsuits from other customers bitten by the fake service dog.

I know that when I see someone in a store, restaurant, airplane, etc, with a dog, I assume it's fake. I don't mean to have that cynical attitude, but that's the mindset numerous experiences over the years have caused me to hold.
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Old 10-10-2014, 09:56 AM
 
Location: NC
720 posts, read 1,484,895 times
Reputation: 1072
Service dog, not travel related.First jewelry making class, a woman plunked a purse with a tiny chihuahua in it down in the middle of the table and announced, "He's a service dog".
No one commented and there haven't been any issues. What bothers ME is seeing that poor little dog captive in a purse, and with a dog's super hearing and smelling abilities, having to endure hammering on metal, and yesterday inhaling glue fumes. Seems wrong.
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Old 10-10-2014, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Upstate NY
35,471 posts, read 10,496,499 times
Reputation: 33574
Poor dog.
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Old 10-10-2014, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Niceville, FL
7,680 posts, read 16,098,271 times
Reputation: 7700
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefragile View Post
I don't get what the problem is. Were you bit? No? The dog & person were removed. End of story. Move on.
With even a 10-15 minute delay, there were probably people on the plane who ended up misisng connecting flights because of this.
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Old 10-10-2014, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Oceania
8,623 posts, read 6,249,054 times
Reputation: 8318
Quote:
Originally Posted by valsteele View Post
I thought the way society worshiped kids was bad enough, but now they are extending it to dogs? Geez. Kids screaming on a plane is annoying but dogs can bite me. I don't want to deal with that.

I despise selfish, narcissistic dog owners.

What you really meant to type.

Would you rather sit in a restaurant full of screaming kids running around or a guy whose seeing eye dog lies quietly under the table while he dines?

BTW...the dog is probably unsettled by the brats as well.
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Old 10-10-2014, 10:49 AM
 
6,040 posts, read 4,433,841 times
Reputation: 16753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlgeer View Post
At the very least, there is a coat or blanket that says "Service Dog" or "Service Animal". If they are not wearing that then they are not a service animal legally.
Unfortunately not true at all.
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Old 10-10-2014, 12:31 PM
 
Location: SW Florida
9,751 posts, read 7,030,085 times
Reputation: 14245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabrrita View Post
Just to clarify:

Disabled passengers and Service Animals traveling in commercial aircraft ARE NOT covered under ADA. They are covered under the Air Carrier Access Act (49 USC 41705) ACAA.

Disabled passengers and Service Animals while on commercial airport property, in terminals, jet ways, and concourses ARE covered under ADA but not ACAA.

The best way is to view it is ADA stops at the aircraft doors and ACAA starts inside the aircraft.

---------------------------------------------

The larger picture is that ADA and ACAA are based on an honor system. A person makes a claim of “service animal” and there is no effective way to challenge it. As a matter of fact, the laws are written in such a way that challenging in the wrong manner could make you in violation of these laws.

A more balance approach (still far from perfect) is the Fair Housing Act (FHA) which makes the accommodation of a assistive animal a “request”. This request comes with additional qualifications whereas the landlord can make qualifying request to their satisfaction.

Unfortunately, past proposals for changes to ADA and the ACAA that would create some legitimate way of identifying true service animals was met with stiff resistance from the disabled community. Their steadfast opposition to anything to change the laws has now resulted in the fake service animal users and the industry around fake service animals overshadowing the legitimate users. Now as the legitimate users of service animals speak up, they are drowned out by the scammers and fakers.

Because of the open knowledge of the wide spread abuse, Congress has taken notice and if people think the last change of limiting service animals to only dogs (and certain miniature horses) was harsh, wait until they see what is approved next go around. Can you say “national identification”…….
While I'd consider I know about as much about service dogs and requirements as the general public (ie, not much), some of the information on links provided by a couple other posters- ie, the ADA requirements for service dogs, and the federal Civil Rights Q & A document about service animals left me with the impression that there are some measures that could be taken by business owners, the airline or other travel industry in the event a dog passed off as a "service" animal by his owner was disruptive to the flow of business in an airport, or other place of business.

1. Both the ADA and the federal Civil Rights Q&A state that any service dog must be in the control of the owner at all times. Usually this requires the dog be leashed unless the leash would prevent him from providing the intended service to the owner, but in that case the dog must be controlled by voice, or a signal from the owner. So seems to me that a dog biting a gate agent or other airline employee, and getting in the way of the agent helping another passenger, or the dog disrupting other activities at the airport would indicate clearly that the owner is NOT controlling the dog, and according to the ADA and the feds both the dog and owner can be required to leave the premises. That's regardless of whether or not the dog is a real certified service dog, but I've never seen a real service dog who was anything but a perfect gentleman, or lady, dedicated to his owner, and a pleasure to be around.

2. A service dog can be asked to leave the premises, along with his owner, if the dog is not housebroken. I think the reasons for that are obvious. I think there was a story some time ago about a woman whose "service" dog had repeatedly done his business in a grocery store and the manager tossed both the woman and her dog out of the store. She fought back, claiming discrimination under the ADA for her "service" dog. I guess there might be scenarios in which a real service dog is sick and unable to control his bodily functions, but in that case I'd think it'd be common sense to give the dog the day off, get his illness taken care of, so he doesn't contaminate the store, or anywhere else he goes. And since she's not within her rights to expect everyone to just deal with her diarrhetic dog, and put up with the mess, even if he were a true service dog, I'd imagine she probably got laughed out of the courtroom as her case was thrown out.

Last edited by Travelassie; 10-10-2014 at 12:42 PM..
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Old 10-10-2014, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,614,623 times
Reputation: 10575
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne View Post
I feel really bad for store and restaurant owners. They have to simply take someone's word for it, if a customer says it's a service dog. It is illegal to ask anything beyond the two specific questions allowed by ADA. But if they let in fake service dogs, they risk problems with Board of Health, or lawsuits from other customers bitten by the fake service dog.
The first is a common misconception, but again, a careful reading of the ADA rules will clear that up.

Food stores and restaurants do retain the right to refuse any and all animals that IN THEIR JUDGMENT cannot be accommodated without compromising the health or safety of the other customers. And they can even deny accommodation to such bona fide ADA service animals as a Guidedog for the Blind if the animal is clearly acting up or not under the owners control, or if they poop or vomit on the premises. But then again, bona fide service animals have been trained not to do those things. There's even a provision for the exceptions...

Quote:
When there is a legitimate reason to ask that a service animal be removed, staff must offer the person with the disability the opportunity to obtain goods or services without the animalís presence.

Revised ADA Requirements: Service Animals
In other words, a restaurant manager must offer an alternative, such as being seated on an outdoor patio, or being offered a takeout order, or being seated if the customer returns without the animal. But they don't have to just roll over in the face of a phony claim, and I've seen people with a pet refused service, legitimately.

Let's hope it is a growing trend.
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Old 10-10-2014, 01:10 PM
 
Location: A tropical island
4,566 posts, read 4,435,043 times
Reputation: 11220
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
The first is a common misconception, but again, a careful reading of the ADA rules will clear that up.
:
It's not a misconception that store owners have to take someone's word for it, in that there is no official card or documentation to prove the dog's role. That's all I meant. Yes, if the dog's behavior becomes a problem, that can be dealt with.

But say, in the example of the OP, this dog didn't happen to bite anyone until after the plane had taken off. It would be difficult to deal with the issue at 30,000 feet. (Not impossible, but certainly difficult). And anyone wanting to board a plane with their precious Fifi, and avoid the $250 round trip dog fee, can simply lie about it being a service dog (can lie when asked the 2 allowable questions). And as long as Fifi behaves until takeoff, there's nothing airline personnel can really do, despite their suspicions about Fifi.

And restaurants??? I'm a dog lover, and a dog owner, but I'm just not thrilled with animals being in restaurants---especially if the owner is telling lies to gain entry, and no verification is needed.

Then a whole 'nuther ball of wax is balancing the rights of disabled individuals with service dogs against the rights of people with severe allergies to dogs. (It's not really up for balancing at this time, as the ADA spells it out, but it doesn't seem fair to those with allergies). Don't shoot me!!! I truly do love dogs and I appreciate the work that genuine service animals do!!!!
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