U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Travel
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-23-2010, 04:19 PM
 
4,805 posts, read 20,242,216 times
Reputation: 4972

Advertisements

The nominee to head the TSA has stated that he believes the TSA should take on the Israeli security approach.

In Israel, security officers engage travelers in casual conversations to assess their threat level. Those that are perceived to be a threat are interrogated, oftentimes asked harsh, invasive, and deeply personal questions. Even if it is determined that passengers pose no threat, their security service sometimes revokes passengers' right to travel.

What are your thoughts on this?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-23-2010, 04:25 PM
 
4,805 posts, read 20,242,216 times
Reputation: 4972
Personally, my feeling is we need MUCH better trained TSA agents if they go this route. I think it sounds like a workable plan, but right now, TSA screeners have almost no more training than they did before 9/11. Most seem to fall into two categories: power trip and apathetic. Israel screening agents go through far more training and their employer has much higher performance standards, which I think are essential to any program that allows civilian employees to interrogate and deny or allow a passenger to fly.

I also think we would need a redress plan. If a person is prevented from flying, what right to they have to travel again in the future? And will tickets be reimbursed or reusable if a person is prevented from flying on a particular day?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2010, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
14,244 posts, read 44,929,003 times
Reputation: 12841
I think you have a point. The Israeli way works, at least for them. TSA seems to be working hard to prevent what's happened in the past (fascination with knives, shoes, and now underwear...)

At the same time I avoid flying more and more. Guess I am spoiled by how it was back in the 1990s - I was flying a lot then, usually got upgraded, in any case I was not treated like a criminal suspect as it is now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2010, 12:44 AM
 
1,964 posts, read 4,603,447 times
Reputation: 1622
Unfortunately the Israeli way involves a heavy dose of racial/ethnic profiling. My friend whose background is Indonesian worked for an Israeli software company and when she used to fly out of Jerusalem alone she would be subjected to criminal cross-examination. For example, they asked why a 32yo attractive woman like her was unmarried. It's definitely humiliating.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2010, 03:36 AM
 
Location: rain city
2,958 posts, read 11,357,828 times
Reputation: 4909
Default Don't hand passport to officials, FCO tells Britons travelling to Israel

Britons travelling to Israel are warned not to hand their passports over to Israeli officials unless it is absolutely necessary in travel advice issued by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

It follows Britain's belief that passports were copied by Israel at Ben Gurion airport.

"The Soca investigation found circumstantial evidence of Israeli involvement in the fraudulent use of British passports. This has raised the possibility that your passport details could be captured for improper uses while your passport is out of your control. "The risk applies in particular to passports without biometric security features. We recommend that you only hand your passport over to third parties including Israeli officials when absolutely necessary."

Don't hand passport to officials, FCO tells Britons travelling to Israel | World news | The Guardian




Israeli security? Really?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2010, 06:48 AM
 
Location: St. Louis
9,601 posts, read 17,182,874 times
Reputation: 13425
Quote:
Originally Posted by kodaka View Post
The nominee to head the TSA has stated that he believes the TSA should take on the Israeli security approach.

In Israel, security officers engage travelers in casual conversations to assess their threat level. Those that are perceived to be a threat are interrogated, oftentimes asked harsh, invasive, and deeply personal questions. Even if it is determined that passengers pose no threat, their security service sometimes revokes passengers' right to travel.

What are your thoughts on this?
We were subjected to this sort of questioning when flying out of London one day and I thought it was way more effective than screening done here. The man pulled our group into a circle and asked some general questions and looked each of us carefully in the eye as we answered. It struck me then that a would-be terrorist would probably be sweating bullets if a security guard looked him in the eye, so I'm all for it. Or almost all for it, except where do they get it that if a passenger poses no threat, they still won't let them fly? Why would that be? Personal rancor? Also, I'm not the type who'll likely be profiled, so I"m more for it than someone who always gets stopped, but it does seem pretty silly when we single out little old ladies for extra questioning or when my underwire bra sets the metal detector to sizzling.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2010, 08:59 AM
 
12,299 posts, read 18,417,176 times
Reputation: 19195
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepka View Post
We were subjected to this sort of questioning when flying out of London one day and I thought it was way more effective than screening done here. The man pulled our group into a circle and asked some general questions and looked each of us carefully in the eye as we answered.
Nah, even the european method is for amateurs. Sure they question you about where you have been, where you have stayed, etc. I've been through it a bunch of times in Schipol, it's more effective than the US method...until you realize these are airline employees and their questions are stock and generic, and sometimes they don't even look up as they ask these questions. And, also this is the same process that the underwear bomber got through.

I am all for the Israeli method. Be aware that it does indeed involve profilings, and those stuck on liberal political correctness will have a problem with it. But then maybe the TSA will stop wasting time by screening the ultra-frequent flyers (like me) and the grandmothers that are obviously no threat.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2010, 10:26 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
22,608 posts, read 39,974,527 times
Reputation: 23749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
...
I am all for the Israeli method. Be aware that it does indeed involve profilings, and those stuck on liberal political correctness will have a problem with it. But then maybe the TSA will stop wasting time by screening the ultra-frequent flyers (like me) and the grandmothers that are obviously no threat.
as a frequent international traveler, I agree in principle. The emotional intelligence and international knowledge / exposure is not gonna be found in our current TSA staff, and quite difficult (or impossible) to 'create'. Societies that live under constant threat are quite a lot more keen to risk. USA is way too passive and trusting. (hint: You don't see social outrage at the invasive US Gov control of late). We are a sheep led to slaughter, and our enemies know it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2010, 11:22 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 5,069,247 times
Reputation: 3853
The good thing about the Israeli security system is that it revolves around human intelligence.

And for the record -- they ask everyone invasive and uncomfortable questions. They want to see your reaction. Someone (like a terrorist) who is already under tremendous emotional strain will most likely crack and totally lose it when irritated with stupid ****, like "Why don't you speak Hebrew?" or "How come your luggage is half-empty?" It's unpleasant, I agree, and I could never resist the temptation to snap at the agents at some point, but I'd rather have that and keep my life. When was the last time an El-Al plane was hijacked or blown up?

But back to human intelligence. The dangerous thing about the TSA is its over-reliance on technology. After every terrorist act, or attempted terrorist act, we implement a new regulation, put in a new fancy gadget, all so that the agents who are supposed to keep us safe can go back on autopilot. We take off our shoes and our belts, but if you think of a way to sneak in explosives or boxcutters in a way that's not covered by the protocol, you'll probably be able to do this right under their nose. The result is a huge hassle for ordinary passengers and a constantly slacking security situation. All the scanners in the world aren't worth a dam, if the people who operate them aren't using their heads, and if they don't care about their jobs. The Israelis have plenty of tech gadgets, but they construct their security system in such a way, that human intelligence is always engaged. There is a standard protocol, I suppose, but ultimately, the agents are tasked with making an individualized security assessment on a case-by-case basis. Adopting that method could make other airlines a whole lot safer. (In fact, Air France already has.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2010, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Aurora, Colorado
2,212 posts, read 4,608,316 times
Reputation: 2363
I flew on El Al from Tel Aviv to Rome and still remember it like it was yesterday. Israelis have no problem with racial profiling or inconveniencing their passengers for the sake of safety. Some people may grumble, but for the most part, they understand that the threat against Israel is very real and therefore, everyone's bags need to be checked and if you don't like it, you can leave. And the previous post was correct...you do get asked a lot of questions when you check in. The check-in agent stares you down as you answer. Where are you going? What did you see? What kind of souvenirs did you buy? Why do you only have one piece of luggage for a 2 week trip?

After boarding our flight, we were told we all had to get off and go through security again. The women and men were separated and sent to a room in groups of 5. We were given a very thorough pat-down and one woman in particular (who was wearing a full-length dress and headgear) had to go into a different room and remove her clothing. Word were exchanged but the woman still had to go.

It was raining and I remember looking out on the cement and seeing luggage being removed from the plane, laid out in a line, a dozen soldiers with dogs walking the dogs through the luggage and opening certain luggage and rifling through it. My luggage wasn't opened but my friends was and her stuff got wet.

About 45 minutes later than we were supposed to take off, 2 Israeli soldiers came on to the plane, grabbed a man and his seatmate and forcibly removed them from the plane. 10 minutes later, the flight attendants closed the doors and we left for Rome.

Can you imagine this happening in America? You have people here who think they can still get to the airport 15 minutes before their plane leaves and then whine and moan about their "inconvenience" when there's a line through security. You have the ACLU declaring that we cannot racially profile and groups of Middle Eastern men praying and acting suspiciously only so they can get on tv and yell about how they are being treated unfairly. This doesn't happen in Israel and while I certainly don't want to live anywhere that there are armed gunmen standing on top of the airport buildings (like in Tel Aviv), the Israelis have found a way to make El Al one of the safest airlines in the world. You have to pay for that safety, however.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Travel
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top