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Thanks for posting this. I had forgotten his last name and all I could come up with was "Larry Sinclair" but I knew it wasn't that. (Larry Sinclair is the name of the guy who claims to have had sex with Barack Obama when they were both teens or early twenties.)
I didn't know that Singleton had been released after such a short time--had thought it was longer. Nor did I know that he had gone on to murder again.
Another case in California more than 25 years ago involved a father who set fire to his 6 year old son in a motel room. The boy, David Rothenberg, survived in spite of having 3rd degree burns over 90 percent of his body. His father, Charles Rothenberg, served less than 7 years in prison.
I think I remember seeing this child on TV years ago. They were talking about the father, maybe Oprah? But, it was beyond horrendous and you have to wonder what justice would look like in a case like this. And, what would the psyche of a father like this look like???
Pandamonium my "grasp on the criminal justice system' is firm and informed.
I see our criminal justice system as flawed.
People get off because they have the money to retain "dream team" attorneys.
Poor people get incompetent, inexperienced or disinterested public defenders and sometimes get the death penalty when it is undeserved.
This is why I am personally against the death penalty. It is also expensive and it puts us in league with nations with which I would prefer not to be associated as an American.
Like the West Memphis Three. Or the well over 100 that have been found innocent on death row. Our criminal justice system is adversarial. 90% of the cases in the United States are plea bargained. This doesn't mean that they are guilty. It means that the have been told that that the odds are stacked against them. Its an automatic win for the state.
Or even better, when we finally get justice from a former police chief that regularly utilized torture to get a confession.
What system do you propose? What changes do you propose?
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But I have NO PROBLEM with life imprisonment without parole.
Why does a "sexual crime" have to be the litmus test?
There are plenty of horrible things one human being can inflict upon another that do not involve sex at all - consider that really brutal crime posted By Cunusu Beach - I mean really ??? That guy got out? WHY?
So that would be in my opinion an "under punished crime"
A perfect example, in fact!
Because when it comes to sexual predators, there is no known cure or rehabilitation. That is why.
I agree, there are plenty of horrible things one human being can inflict on another that do not involve sex at all. In fact, that is my problem with this. Its arbitrary.
A 21 year old man was shot in his apartment executionary style. I believe that there were a total of 7 individuals involved. 5 of them were convicted and sentenced to 65 years. Combination of adults and juveniles. Horrible thing inflicted here. In fact, there was a little torture prior to his murder.
Another fact about this case, they were trying to steal the victims marijuana. Does that change the attitude towards this? You betcha.
Aiyana Stanley-Jones got a whole lot of media attention. Jarean Blake did not. We have kids that are dying every damn day. Do they not meet the criteria? Does the attitude change depending on the victim? Do we look at the area and the skin color and dismiss it? If you live in an area and you know that there is someone that has a gun and giving every sign that they will shoot up your house-----does this not constitute psychological torture?
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Another that comes to mind is the 1965 torture slaying of teenager Sylvia Liken in Indiana. The ring leader an adult woman Gertrude Baniszewski got twenty years! Her teenged children and neighbor children who were complicit in branding tatooing burning scalding starving humiliating and viscous and relentless of beating this girl served very little time. One went on to offend again - Coy Hubbard armed robbery after serving only 2 years!
Her adult daughters are now grandmothers and live quiet lives with changed names in Iowa and Florida. One went on to become a teacher.
Gertrude did not go on to reoffend. Further, she was sentenced to 18 years to life. Cory Hubbard-2 to 21 years. They did the minimum and were released. So, what I am hearing is that you *feel* that justice wasn't served. That is not the case. The reality is that by the laws at the time, justice was served. Those laws have changed substantially.
The state takes on the role of the victim for a reason. I'm not hearing anything about altering the system with laws. I am hearing that people do not think that it was enough to satisfy their emotional need for revenge gbased on how they *feel* about the perpetrator and the value of the life of the victim. Sylvia Liken was found not to be a prostitute. Had she been a prostitute would that have changed the reaction from the public?
somehow in the last 50 years we ditched punishment and replaced it with time out.
dr spock lied.
mutant christian doctrine monster.
highest prison population on earth.
in bagdad they have low prison population and hardly any gangbangers.
They still have honor killings even if the woman was raped. 9 year olds can still be married off. One nation over has a huge opium production.
Crap. If we took rape, child molestation, murder and drugs off the table, we would have empty prisons, too. Obviously, not everyone but this crap still goes on. Spare me the highly enlightened status of Baghdad.
If Sylvia Likens was found to be a prostitute it would not change a thing in terms of my thoughts that justice was not served.
In fact it would add a degree of sadness to an already sad case.
We do not know what offenses were committed within the families of the surviving Baniszewski families. Yes we know that Hubbard went on to offend again.
I too do not want to hear anything positive about "enlightened" places like Baghdad Singapore or China.
That is not the type of country that I admire.
My concern does in part stem from feelings - but that is not a bad thing. It can be when people indulge in revenge fantasies but I am not one of those people.
The Baniszewski - Likens case was under- punished in my estimation because all sociological data that exists would be predictive of each of these individuals perpetrating the same types of familial abuse within their own families.
I admit to being grossly uncomfortable with the idea of these people having and raising children after being a part of that act.
Since the choice at the time seemed to be "the char" - or next to nothing, people felt uncomfortable giving children and a woman the death sentence
I would too.
But would they have felt equally uncomfortable if all of the perpetrators were Black?
I just do not think that people who commit acts of gross inhumanity should be permitted to walk free and procreate.
I feel the same way about Nazi war criminals.
I think sex crimes are thought of differently in our country than are extremely violent crimes because of our deep puritan roots. Religion permeates our society in a way that colors people values.
Even the fact that you asked the question that you did shows that you are on to this.
Being a prostitute was just about the worst thing that gang could think of! Worse than sadistic torture in their small minds.
BTW most of the perps in that case were practicing fundamentalist Christians.
There wasn't a lot of sociological data related to child abuse in the 1960's. In fact, it wasn't until the 1960's that laws and cash became available to investigate and mandatory reporting. Abuse made the headlines when it became extreme. It isn't that it was "discovered" or a new concept. It was very vague, hell some parts of it are very vague now. While there were people that were very much against it, there were just as many more that firmly believed in spare the rod, spoil the child. To this day, there are people that will still use an electrical cord to beat the living crap out of their kid. Or, pull a gun on them. Or fight with them like they are off the street. And we have the luxury of the data now. We also have the luxury of knowing that caseworkers have more power now then they did before.
Extensive bullying. We are just now beginning to deal with bullying and its consequences. We still have parts of society that say, its just a part of growing up...deal with it. Complete with adults that say smart things like, I didn't pull the trigger. We have known about the consequences of bullying for years and years but society hasn't found them too important.
This is a very old case. While I don't believe that you would go to the lengths to seek vengeance there are people that are online that have not only made contact but have stated that they are willing to try to make contact with any family members that are living and those that might have been sheltered from a lot of information about the case. When their opening line is that they made contact and requested information on how they felt about their role....its like a set up. These people make no bones about what they have to say and that they are vengeance seeking. They then say that the other person in question is lying. Well, when you open with that level of hostility then you aren't asking for genuine reflection. You're forcing them to defend to the end. They profess their undying love for Sylvia and list all of the things that they would do to Gertrude or Paula and Stephanie.
Still others have claimed to have come into contact with family members and that they have a relationship or have communicated with them via the internet and phone. I think Dennis's wife posts on one of (yuku) or several boards. And on that board, there is a lot of posts trying to get Stephanie to post. She has posted elsewhere. Marie and Paula allegedly posted on IMDB board. There is even information that Paula's first born was adopted and now is a successful professional. Dianna sends messages but doesn't post. I think someone has been online either true or false that is related to Coy.
You can read some of Dennis' wifes posts here on this thread. Sundance Review: An American Crime « FirstShowing.net
There is this division by people that want to know why and those who want to retry the case and punish.
Too, Gertrude very my well have been religious and mentally ill- bipolar. Maurice Clemmons was religious and mentally ill. And on that note, the KKK also claimed traditional fundy Christianity.
I'm not going to lie. I have a big you shouldn't breed thing especially in regards to mothers and MIA fathers who have 9 kids while addicted to drugs or with very low IQ's. It momentarily makes me feel better but doesn't do a damn thing. The family members that are still living and their children and grandchildren face constant battle for an event that many were not around at the time and the monsters that are depicted they do not know.
Gave you rep. My intention was and is not to stir up vigilante sentiment. Yet I have a hard time with how staunch Gertrude's apologists are to this day.
Actually I am not a vengeful person at all. I do not even believe in the death penalty.
I just think that what was meted out that passed for justice in 1966 did not do a service to society.
As a person with a background in sociology, I am a harm reductionist.
How was harm to society reduced in this case? Today over forty years later, the offspring in laws and friends of these people have a huge internet presence that includes threats to those who dare discuss what went on.
This is all a matter of public record. Yet still there are those who want to keep what happened in
"The Basement."
I saw the link on the Sundance thread for "An American Crime" so this is the first time I've seen this particular forum. I will introduce myself. I am the wife of baby Dennis, and yes I have posted on several boards/forums. However, I have never threatened anyone in any manner for any reason including "daring to discuss what went on". I am not an apologist for Gertrude. I am also anything but a fundie. Before you accuse people of threatening others, you should probably have your facts straight.
I have never come across anything that you have written that has come close to threats or as an apologist for Gertrude. In fact, I think that you have shown an amount of patience or tolerance that I can say--I don't have. I specifically referred to your posts because you bring a sense of reasoning, you have spoken about the health problems, foster care and how your husband came to learn about this. You know, that whole human element. I posted the link to the movie specifically because the link to the forum (yuku) might have been removed.
I think its a shame that you discovered this forum in this way. There are a gazillion other topics here where we aren't talking about this subject.
Gave you rep. My intention was and is not to stir up vigilante sentiment. Yet I have a hard time with how staunch Gertrude's apologists are to this day.
Actually I am not a vengeful person at all. I do not even believe in the death penalty.
I just think that what was meted out that passed for justice in 1966 did not do a service to society.
As a person with a background in sociology, I am a harm reductionist.
How was harm to society reduced in this case? Today over forty years later, the offspring in laws and friends of these people have a huge internet presence that includes threats to those who dare discuss what went on.
This is all a matter of public record. Yet still there are those who want to keep what happened in
"The Basement."
Typical fundies.
The first thing that this did was bring child abuse and put it on the table. The issues presented within this specific case highlight some very taboo topics at the time. Issues that we talk about now, wouldn't have been discussed. It would have been whispered about when the person walked by. Unwed mothers, epilepsy, financial instability, child support, domestic violence, family violence, mental illness, birth control, pregnancy and the loss of the child or PPD that may follow, sexual and financial competitiveness.
Why is this important? So, that we can look at all possible contributing factors to prevent this from occuring.
The big questions are always, who knew what, what did you know and when did you know it.This is true for any issue or event. Because the laws were changing and agencies were developing during this time, I am sure that policies were developed for stronger investigations.
However, it should be noted that many policies and laws were developed by the middle to upper classes and do not begin to address the needs at the poverty level. To this day, we still haven't adequately addressed them. People are spoon fed middle class mainstream ideas that are not even close to reality.The world revolves in many areas around 9-5, but the vast majority of people do not work those hours. Today, we ask, do you know where your children are and why would you leave them with someone that you didn't know in a house you didn't see? It is unacceptable. But we have inadequate or unaffordable child care and jobs that reserve the right to schedule you when ever they want and know that your going to do it because you need the job. People will scramble for child care.
I don't know if there is a huge internet presence, it is 2010 and lots of people are computer literate. There are many sites that have the topic up and a great many more that do not. I can't imagine coming across a blog that someone was discussing one of my parents and not wanting to smack the crap out of them or at least offer the other view.
I didn't get to read the posts at IMDB. I get the feeling that it isn't about keeping anything hidden. I think that there is a great deal of not wanting to hear what is being said. They do not want to hear what anyone else's viewpoint is or was at the time.
Huge, in comparison to those who have been involved with the commission of similar horrific crimes against humanity. Actually I do not know of any other family members of torture killers who make their presence known at all - on the internet or otherwise or want to have their side heard as much as the members of this group do.!
This crime did and and continues to invoke "public outrage." What was done to this girl was eerily similar to what was done to victims of the Holocaust, only 20 years earlier.
I am similarly disinterested in hearing excuses from say, a female SS Guard. Were all of the Nazis suffering from mental illness/ Was Ted Bundy or Charles Manson? Perhaps they were perhaps some were. That does not blunt or excuse the evil and violence that was perpetrated.
There is also a feminist perspective to this crime which is peculiar to that time place and social class. i do not have the time to explore that here.I am very aware of the poverty and ignorance of these people.Still, it is difficult for me and for others to muster up anything that might smack of sympathy,
for them. If this were a poor black family we might never have even heard of the event.
The whole thing is so wrong.
Most poor folks in 1965 and now are decent people too involved with providing for their families in a society that does little to assist to practice judo, starve and brand a helpless girl.
As to people who choose to align themselves with these people I really have no words.
If one of my teengers brought home the relative or son of such a person I would be very very disturbed. I think that is a fairly normal reaction.
As far as someone discussing my parents on the internet and my wanting to smack the crap out of them - actually that is not the case, If my parents did anything in their lives remotely as awful as what was done to Sylvia Likens I would not be surprised if people discussed them.
Blood is NOT thicker than water - that is a very primitive response to brutality.
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They still have honor killings even if the woman was raped. 9 year olds can still be married off. One nation over has a huge opium production. 
