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Old 07-31-2011, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,750,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
Again, did you read the article? Yes, THIS prison is fancy and new but the way in which Norway approaches criminal rehabilitation is the same.
Yes I read the article. This is a NEW prison and is in the news because it is so nice. I see nothing in the article claiming this prison is typical of all prisons in Norway!!! In fact it sounds to me, like it made the news because it is so much like going on vacation to club med. You'll have to look elsewhere for the reason behind the low recividism rate. This prison has not been existance long enough to have made an impact, positive or negative and we don't know other factors that may be influencing recividism rates. The entire structure of their society is different than ours. Picking out one thing and holding it up as the ONE thing making the difference is just dumb. If you did this here, recividism rates would go up not down. Making life nicer in prison than out would backfire here. I'm going to guess a difference in values makes it work there but that is just my guess.

I think you need to look at the whole picture not just one part. Especially when that part is too new to have actually made an impact.

One striking difference I found in the little I researched this today is the difference in sentence lengths there and here. They are much shorter in Norway. I would think the shorter the sentence the easier it would be to go back into society, especially if the emphasis on prison is getting prisoners ready to go back into soceity. If I had to pick one thing in our system different from theirs to try and change to see if it made a difference in recividism rates, I think it would be sentence lengths. If you take people out of society too long, I think you jeopardize their ability to adapt to society when they are put back in. I don't think making prisons nicer would help much. In fact I think it would have the opposite effect. If life in prison in like vacation compared to life on the street, I can see criminals repeating to go back in.

I don't see America buying into this when prisonors are being given more job training and education opportunties than law abiding citizens as things are now. I also don't see us paying their taxes to pay for it. Fortunately, for those who think life would be better there, no one is forcing you to stay in the U.S.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 07-31-2011 at 08:22 AM..
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:25 AM
 
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From the article:

Quote:
Ten years and 1.5 billion Norwegian kroner ($252 million) in the making, Halden is spread over 75 acres (30 hectares) of gently sloping forest in southeastern Norway. The facility boasts amenities like a sound studio, jogging trails and a freestanding two-bedroom house where inmates can host their families during overnight visits. Unlike many American prisons, the air isn't tinged with the smell of sweat and urine. Instead, the scent of orange sorbet emanates from the "kitchen laboratory" where inmates take cooking courses. "In the Norwegian prison system, there's a focus on human rights and respect," says Are Hoidal, the prison's governor. "We don't see any of this as unusual."
Quote:
Halden, Norway's second largest prison, with a capacity of 252 inmates, opened on April 8. It embodies the guiding principles of the country's penal system: that repressive prisons do not work and that treating prisoners humanely boosts their chances of reintegrating into society.

IOW, though this prison is new, the philosophy Norwegians hold towards criminal rehabilitation is not.
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:30 AM
 
28,206 posts, read 20,755,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post

I don't see America buying into this when prisonors are being given more job training and education opportunties than law abiding citizens as things are now. I also don't see us paying their taxes to pay for it. Fortunately, for those who think life would be better there, no one is forcing you to stay in the U.S.
Oh brother! Sad that we can't discuss other countries' practices and how they work/don't work without the "love it or leave it" mentality.
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil306 View Post
No, they cannot sentence to life in prison. Read it again. The MAXIMUM they can sentence one too is 21 yrs. After which, they can REQUEST 5 yr extentions; per your post.

However, you realize, its NEVER OCCURRED???
They should have never brought Anders Breivik in alive.

I don't think prison should be a resort type facility. Individuals are sent to prison as punishment for crimes committed. There is nothing wrong with 23 hours in a cell with one hour of doing whatever.
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,750,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
Oh brother! Sad that we can't discuss other countries' practices and how they work/don't work without the "love it or leave it" mentality.
I disagree that making prisons like Club Med will deter crime. If someone else thinks it will, they're welcome to go somewhere where prisons are like Club Med. I think making prison like vacation has little to do with recividism rates. Quite likely, it has more to do with shorter sentences and a focus on rehabilitation than prison conditions beyond those conditions not aggrevating the issues but you don't have to go to a Club Med setting to make prison more condusive to rehabilitation.

Personally, I don't want their taxes so I'm staying here. Anyone who wants them is welcome to move. That's the beauty of living in the United States. No one is keeping you here if you don't like it.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 07-31-2011 at 10:01 AM..
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaWoman View Post
They should have never brought Anders Breivik in alive.

I don't think prison should be a resort type facility. Individuals are sent to prison as punishment for crimes committed. There is nothing wrong with 23 hours in a cell with one hour of doing whatever.
I'd say it depends on the crime. For someone doing life, this is fine. Prison should be bare bones since prison is for punishment only. For lesser crimes, where criminals will, eventually, be released back into society, prison has a twofold purpose; rehabilitation and punishment. I would like to see more focus on rehabilitation but I see no purpose in making prisons like resorts. I don't think that serves any purpose other than to waste money. I think rehabilitation can work without the Club Med setting and it's more likely the focus on rehabilitation that is working in Norway NOT the Club Med like prison setting, though I'm sure the inmates love it for what that is worth.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:19 AM
 
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Quote:
I don't think prison should be a resort type facility. Individuals are sent to prison as punishment for crimes committed. There is nothing wrong with 23 hours in a cell with one hour of doing whatever.
I think a prison for lower level offenders (drug offenders, burglars, criminals who commit non-violent offenses) shouldn't have air tight security. I would think it would be cheaper to simply create the equivalent of the kind of a bunkhouse that boy scouts stay at during summer camp or that military recruits stay in during basic training. I see no need for fences, barbed wire, or any of that. If the inmates refuse to stay in the facility, they should be placed in a facility with far fewer privileges and with more security if they try to escape. I don't think placing such prisoners in a "chain gang" is necessary or desirable. I think I would eliminate television altogether and replace it with instructional films and occasional movies shown for recreation. The kind of person who should be recruited as a guard at such a facility should be a former military drill sergeant type.

The emphasis during the day should be two-fold:

1. The equivalent of a 9-5 workday. I see no reason why minimum security prisoners shouldn't be out and about doing work that needs to be done in a community. They can care for the grounds at public buildings. They can pick up litter on highways. They can do any one of a thousand jobs which needs to be done, but which the taxpayers can't afford to pay someone to do. Prisoners should be told at the outset that its a privilege to be able to leave the prison and be in the community and than any violation of rules will result in them losing this privilege and being placed in a secure facility.

2. After work, evenings should be taken up with classes designed to teach prisoners basic educational skills and job skills necessary to earn an honest living when they are released from custody. It goes without saying that drug and alcohol offenders should be in a program to deal with these issues.

Of course, this type of system won't work for violent offenders. However, what I advocate would actually be cheaper (bunkhouses are far cheaper than super strength facilities surrounded by walls and barbed wire).
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,750,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I think a prison for lower level offenders (drug offenders, burglars, criminals who commit non-violent offenses) shouldn't have air tight security. I would think it would be cheaper to simply create the equivalent of the kind of a bunkhouse that boy scouts stay at during summer camp or that military recruits stay in during basic training. I see no need for fences, barbed wire, or any of that. If the inmates refuse to stay in the facility, they should be placed in a facility with far fewer privileges and with more security if they try to escape. I don't think placing such prisoners in a "chain gang" is necessary or desirable. I think I would eliminate television altogether and replace it with instructional films and occasional movies shown for recreation. The kind of person who should be recruited as a guard at such a facility should be a former military drill sergeant type.

The emphasis during the day should be two-fold:

1. The equivalent of a 9-5 workday. I see no reason why minimum security prisoners shouldn't be out and about doing work that needs to be done in a community. They can care for the grounds at public buildings. They can pick up litter on highways. They can do any one of a thousand jobs which needs to be done, but which the taxpayers can't afford to pay someone to do. Prisoners should be told at the outset that its a privilege to be able to leave the prison and be in the community and than any violation of rules will result in them losing this privilege and being placed in a secure facility.

2. After work, evenings should be taken up with classes designed to teach prisoners basic educational skills and job skills necessary to earn an honest living when they are released from custody. It goes without saying that drug and alcohol offenders should be in a program to deal with these issues.

Of course, this type of system won't work for violent offenders. However, what I advocate would actually be cheaper (bunkhouses are far cheaper than super strength facilities surrounded by walls and barbed wire).
I agree with this. What people are missing here, because they're blinded by the Club Med atmosphere of this prison in Norway, is it's not the posh lifestyle that is working. It's the emphasis on rehabilitation. I do think, for lesser criminals, we often do more harm than good by locking them up without giving them a way out. I just don't think they need to go to a resort to learn how to live in society.

I think inmates should be productive and working towards goals that will help them live in society. Failure to do so should result in a longer sentence in a more secure prison. We tend to think punishment is enough and, sometimes it is. Sometimes, however, punishment doesn't address the reason the person became a criminal to begin with....lack of education, lack of skills, no suport system...etc, etc, etc... The hard core end up back in and there comes a point you should just lock them up and throw away the key to protect society.
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Old 07-31-2011, 01:10 PM
 
8,680 posts, read 13,307,850 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Nice system. I think I'd commit another crime and go back in though. After 21 years, with no career or history out in the general population and a prision that's more like a luxury resort than a prison, in is better than out...
It just seems like a vacation to Americans, whose lives these days can be so miserable that being incarcerated like that is a step up.

But for Norway, where the population enjoys a fantastic standard of living and freedom that far surpasses our own, it would not seem like a vacation. It would seem like incarceration.
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Old 07-31-2011, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,750,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
It just seems like a vacation to Americans, whose lives these days can be so miserable that being incarcerated like that is a step up.

But for Norway, where the population enjoys a fantastic standard of living and freedom that far surpasses our own, it would not seem like a vacation. It would seem like incarceration.
ROTFLMAO....

Hmmmm? Everything costs more and taxes are at 43% compared to our 28%. Unless the government is giving everyone spa days, I doubt they are living like those who are incarcerated.

I will grant that they do not have the poverty level we have but you'll have to prove to me that every day life in Norway exceeds living at Club Med prisons. Please back up your claim that the population of Norway enjoys a fantastic standard of living that far surpasses our own. The inmates have sauna's, sun decks to sun bathe on, live in houses, have access to free education, free job training, fully equipped kitchens to work in, etc, etc, etc.... please prove that the general population in Norway lives better than this. I won't hold my breath.... While they do earn a higher average income than we do, they pay 50% more in taxes than we do. If you're not keeping it, it's not adding to your standard of living though their lower class citizens do fare much better than ours due to a higher minimum wage and things like free health care but I don't think you'll find their standard of living much higher when you compare our middle class to their middle class but have at it. You made the claim, now prove it. Prove that every day live in Norway is better than every day life in a posh prison in Norway and so much so that the prison would actually seem like a prison. ... Think about it.... If this was true, they'd have a line at their border of people trying to get in....

I still think the biggest difference is a focus on rehabilitation not treating criminals like they are on vacation.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 07-31-2011 at 01:57 PM..
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