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Old 08-02-2011, 05:17 AM
 
28,206 posts, read 20,747,850 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I'm really having a good laugh here. I did a little research on Norway's resort prisons and it turns out that criminals must apply to go there which means that the prisoners are hand selected. That being the case, the recividism rate is meaningless and only proves that one can hand select prisoners and attain a low recividism rate.

Interestingly, I found other countries with prisons that have even better recividism rates who also focus on rehabilitation but do not offer a resort lifestyle. Less restrictive than our own (you'd have to be to focus on rehabilitation) but no saunas, gourmet kitchens, beaches or sun decks....Which leads me to what I concluded in the first place....it's the focus on rehabilitation that is working, not the saunas, though I'm sure the prisoners love the saunas...

From what I'm reading, the key seems to be a focus on rehabilitation and shorter sentences, which makes perfect sense.
No KIDDING!

Who said anything different?
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Old 08-02-2011, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Florida
21,660 posts, read 11,127,912 times
Reputation: 7888
I believe if the people are morally bankrupt they will commit crimes. Perhaps in a society that teaches strong ethical and moral thinking, this will enable the population to walk the straight and narrow.

We here in America can push freedoms into areas that are morally degenerating to ones thinking. Lyrics to songs ,movies, games, drugs , drinking , sex, violence with general acceptance of lower standards regarding behavior can push one into thinking they can get away with what is against the law. Anyone can justify behaviors that are truly a degenerating effect on society. We see the effects of it in the newspapers daily.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,742,486 times
Reputation: 14583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
No KIDDING!

Who said anything different?
This thread is about posh prisons. My argument is you don't need to make prisons posh to have low recividism rates. I came across countries with even lower recividism rates than Norway in my research and they don't have club med prisons. As much as prisoners may like this, it's a waste of money.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,742,486 times
Reputation: 14583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taratova View Post
I believe if the people are morally bankrupt they will commit crimes. Perhaps in a society that teaches strong ethical and moral thinking, this will enable the population to walk the straight and narrow.

We here in America can push freedoms into areas that are morally degenerating to ones thinking. Lyrics to songs ,movies, games, drugs , drinking , sex, violence with general acceptance of lower standards regarding behavior can push one into thinking they can get away with what is against the law. Anyone can justify behaviors that are truly a degenerating effect on society. We see the effects of it in the newspapers daily.
What we don't do is take care of the bottom of society. Oil rich nations, like Norway, can spend more on the lowest segment of the population. When your basic needs are met, you don't need to turn to crime. Unfortunately, we are not an oil rich nation so we can't copy what they do. We also wouldn't accept lowering our incomes to pay for it. Given the cost of living in Norway and the tax structure, anyone with a decent income would see their buying power, significantly, reduced if we attempted it and we'd have to go further because we don't have money from oil exports. We're an importer of oil.

Our system relies on everyone taking care of themselves. While we have safety nets in place, they are temporary and restricted and our minimum wage isn't high enough to live off of. We also worship STUFF! I wonder when the last time someone shot someone over a pair of sun glasses was in Norway? It was about two weeks ago here.
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Old 08-04-2011, 07:32 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,592,078 times
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A few points, because there seems to be a lot of confusion here....

Halden prison is not the most luxurious in Norway. It is just the newest. The whole "most luxurious in the world" was just TIME wanting a headline. "Norway builds new prison" does not have quite the same ring.

The most comfortable prison in Norway is generally considered to be Bastř prison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I'm really having a good laugh here. I did a little research on Norway's resort prisons and it turns out that criminals must apply to go there which means that the prisoners are hand selected.
And the applications are competitive. So to get to the better prisons, a criminal must normally do stuff like complete anger management courses, show interest in their education, and get along with other prisoners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Nice system. I think I'd commit another crime and go back in though. After 21 years, with no career or history out in the general population and a prision that's more like a luxury resort than a prison, in is better than out...
You must have gone on vacations very different to mine.

You don't get to decide when you get up, what you wear, who you hang with, when you eat, what kind of work you do, when to wash your clothes, when to go to bed, or when your lights go out. No women, and everyone in your peer group is a -possibly violent- criminal.

Yes, pretty pictures on the walls. But you lose all the freedoms an adult has grown to take for granted. I'd compare it to the most restrictive, controlling boys boading school ever. With an intake of mainly boys from a very rough background.

Not my kind of vacation.

And a lot of the stuff that sounds like a bonus to people -free education, health care, etc- are stuff all Norwegians have anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblue View Post
It has not been decided what prison he will end up in. Today, he is at Ila, a different prison.
Everyone sentenced to detention in Norway has to do the first year of their sentence at Ila. Hardened criminals dead that time. You can be moved to a normal prison after the Ila time. But to do that, you need to have shown you can get along with the other prisoners. The Oslobomber is going to have a problem with that. To put it mildly.

You also need to show you can get along with the other prisoners if you want a real chance of passing the release review at the end of a detention sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Hmmmm? Everything costs more and taxes are at 43% compared to our 28%. Unless the government is giving everyone spa days, I doubt they are living like those who are incarcerated.
Obviously, they live far better than the incarcerated people. Don't get so fixated on the material backdrop that you forget the value of freedom. Like the ability to read a book not in the prison library, log onto the internet, or go to a pub for a beer with your friends.

Also, taxes are not so simple. Norway is what is called a high-tax, high-deductible system. Top rates are only paid on the last bits of money earned. Statistics Norway calculates that the average Norweigan pays 25 % tax on everything. If you include VAT, Norwegians pay about 7 % more tax than Americans, but get far more back from their taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I don't think you'll find their standard of living much higher when you compare our middle class to their middle class but have at it.
Having tried both, I've found a very large gap there, in favor of Norway.

In terms of median household income (PPP) the average American family seems to be about $ 100 per year better off than the average Norwegian family.

But the Norwegians don't have to worry about expenses for health care, college for the kids or pensions. They have 5 weeks of vacation and far less worries about crime, with a far less intrusive law enforcement system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
You made the claim, now prove it. Prove that every day live in Norway is better than every day life in a posh prison in Norway and so much so that the prison would actually seem like a prison.
Everyday life in Norway outside of prison involves deciding for yourself who to hang out with, when to go to bed, and what to wear. As well as interaction with the opposite sex.

Done.

(Also, yes, nothing in the prison actually seems exceptionally luxurious for a working adult in Norway. Maybe for a student or single parent)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
... Think about it.... If this was true, they'd have a line at their border of people trying to get in....
That is not an inaccurate descrition of the immigration pressures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
What we don't do is take care of the bottom of society. Oil rich nations, like Norway, can spend more on the lowest segment of the population.
Norway saves all its oil income in a sovereign wealth fund for a rainy day. Everything is financed from the non-oil economy.
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:35 AM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
15,512 posts, read 17,740,343 times
Reputation: 30801
I would like to know what kind of vacations Americans take that lead them to compare the Norwegian prison system to Club Med.

Granted, their prisons are comparatively nice, but I would rather live in a shabby slum but be free to move about at will, make decisions that impact my life and not be under observation, which is to say, have freedom, than live in the equivalent of a third-rate college dormitory that I can not leave for 21+ years.

But then again, it seems so-called "freedom-loving" Americans value fresh paint and curtains over true freedom.
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Out in the Badlands
10,425 posts, read 8,784,970 times
Reputation: 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
Norway's Halden Fengsel Prison: Humane Rehab for Inmates - TIME

This article is from May 2010 but I just read it. I thought it might make an interesting conversation/debate.

From the article:
hey lets go commit some crimes in "Noway" sounds like a country club.
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Old 08-06-2011, 06:58 AM
 
119 posts, read 132,151 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Reader View Post
facts
hear hear...
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:08 AM
 
3,173 posts, read 3,076,764 times
Reputation: 3699
Sounds like a good idea and a good place for 1st time offenders.
Do something again and get sent to a real prison.
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:34 AM
 
Location: Out West
22,747 posts, read 16,830,942 times
Reputation: 26299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
Norway's Halden Fengsel Prison: Humane Rehab for Inmates - TIME

This article is from May 2010 but I just read it. I thought it might make an interesting conversation/debate.

From the article:
Fabulous. I'll move to Norway and commit a crime. Sounds like paradise.
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