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Old 02-06-2012, 04:54 PM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,837,717 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
what a tragedy for the children (and the mother, of course)

our system is failing these children time and time again.

they should never have been given back to a murder suspect in the first place, but will we ever learn?
It was a case worker supervised visit and he shoved the kids in, shoved her out the door. Premeditated for sure, but... there's more to this. I just know it. I think his own father orchestrated a colossal mind screw.

But I do agree with you that parental rights can't trump children's rights.

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Durham Father Charged in Childrens' Shooting :: WRAL.com

Insight on the Longo case...
The Last Psychiatrist: This Man Killed His Family And He Doesn't Know Why
Quote:
Trapped? If he cared about money he would have stolen more of it; maybe even killed a couple of people to get their money. No. If he cared about his freedom he could have abandoned his family and fled the country. No. If he felt guilty about what he had done he could have found Jesus or simply killed himself. No. The thing he cared about more than anything else was his identity, and the ones who reflected that identity back to him were his family. They had to go.

Probably, you don't understand how killing people you love so much protects your identity: aren't you now going to be exposed as a murderer? But if you kill your family, then no matter what else happens to you it doesn't matter, because they will never know. You did them a favor: they don't have to live with the pain of knowing you are a fraud.
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,955 posts, read 22,099,030 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBelleInUtah View Post
At least here in UT the visits usually take place in a neutral location. One if my friends has a grandson in this situation with his father. They don't allow the teen to walk home from school for fear of the dad snatching him.
Actually, on Channel 2, they just interviewed a Utah social worker who said that the non-custodial parent's home is where these visits frequently take place. She made a pretty good case for that policy, too. She almost had me convinced that as long as the visits were supervised, the home would be the best place to reunite a parent and child. The problem is, in this instance, if the social worker had made it in side the house, she'd have died too. Josh would never have been able to spread 10 gallons of gasoline around in a public place like he did in his own home.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:12 PM
 
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This is very sad.

But I saw a neighbor woman interviewed and she bothered me. She filmed the house burning.

Anyone else noticing a disturbing trend where people stand around with their cell phones and film tragedy rather than trying to save someone?

Perhaps in this case there was no way to get close to the house, but all this woman said was we were watching the Super Bowl and heard this load explosion and I grabbed my video camera.

She didn't mention one word about her or anyone else making any rescue attempt.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds View Post
What's even sadder, is...
...You really believe you're Christian and personify an object lesson in one fell swoop.

The very kind of woman who would string a man like Christian Longo along pandering to his delusions rather than get him the help he needs. Speaking of women, a similar thing happened to Andrea Yates denying she had post partum depression. She was 'lazy' & 'spoiled' trying to avoid raising her 5 children. Out of the mouth of her husband- she needed more discipline. It's a good thing he's got a ego-massaging-friendly PTSD therapist of his own coaching him for years to blame the disease for why he took it upon himself to override her psychiatrists recommendations. Accountability must be avoided at every cost.

Above and beyond all gender distinctions there is a common thread on the subject of murdering their children... When born again christians, LDS, and Jehovahs witness theology is involved, those in most trouble are willfully neglected and shunned when times get rough and they're in most desperate need of guidance. When they're dying of heart disease, keep forcing diabetic meds on them, and blame them for why they die of the combined insulin overdose and a heart attack. Every problem human beings face is all about a lack of discipline, therefore, tough love comes out of the drawer first when they fail to run a mile in 5 min with one leg and kids on their back counting on them. :::Innocent look:::

Outward appearances they're in the most trouble because they embraced a theology making a slave to appearances of propriety. Prosperity preaching lite. The moment they can't tithe and they're scraping pennies out of their car ashtrays for food, funny how no one from these orgs care to 'save' them anymore. They offer them a one way bus trip to NYC to facilitate the murder of John Lennon. Prosthelytizing in fancy neighborhoods and ignoring those in the worst trouble is so much more lucrative. Here's the fruit of your (c)hristian conservative compassion. Keep it for yourself, I'm having none.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,601,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harborlady View Post
But I do agree with you that parental rights can't trump children's rights.
Everyone has rights that are defined and circumscribed by the Constitution.

A child is presumed to have the right and the interest to be raised by his own parents, without a clear and convincing rationale to the contrary. A child who is removed from a non-abusive parent has had his rights violated as surely as a child who is returned to an abusive parent.
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:13 PM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,837,717 times
Reputation: 2772
Quote:
Originally Posted by seain dublin View Post
This is very sad.

But I saw a neighbor woman interviewed and she bothered me. She filmed the house burning.

Anyone else noticing a disturbing trend where people stand around with their cell phones and film tragedy rather than trying to save someone?

Perhaps in this case there was no way to get close to the house, but all this woman said was we were watching the Super Bowl and heard this load explosion and I grabbed my video camera.

She didn't mention one word about her or anyone else making any rescue attempt.
YES! I DO notice! That aspect is also very disturbing to me, but understandable. Like other stories, a school principal getting caught in the crossfire of drug dealers isn't in his job description in a civilization that's become too specialized losing sight of the bigger picture we're operating in. From unconfirmed accounts the caseworker had tried entry, quickly dialed 911, but was knocked away from the house from the blast, followed by multiple calls to 911.

I don't think most normal people really know how to deal with people who are out of control with themselves, which in and of itself is an abnormality in a nation that grants it's citizens the right to self defense. Particularly women who by virtue of having lesser stature don't see self defense training as useful. The policies for emergency responders is to stand back and wait for police. That coupled with a legal system that tends to punish good samaritans isn't very healthy for communities.

I'd rather see physical fitness programs in schools spend more time teaching self defense and recognize signs of mental illness for what they are. To some degree it's got to be everyones job, not just the cops. Even if it means dumping a bag of marbles on the ground when a mugger is running from authority. Should a fugitive of the law be permitted to sue me for breaking his leg? We all have the ability to do something. Knowing what that thing is isn't something people give a whole lot of thought about until circumstances get in their faces, followed by complaints from the peanut gallery of public opinion when we're graceless or less than perfect about the means of defending ourselves.

But this was all premeditated. I don't think anyone in the situation had the slightest clue what he was up to & it was executed too swiftly. Human beings cannot move faster than an explosion. There isn't a guarantee police officers escorting these kids to the custodial visit could have managed a better outcome. The strategic element of surprise ran against any potential remediation and won. Had police presence existed, I expect they'd be among the casualties.

The only means of prevention the court system had might have would have been a psyche evaluation, but soft science being soft science leaves a good deal falling through the cracks. Can't blame the judges and cops for a stubborn problem that's making their own job difficult. We (as a society) just don't know enough about mental illness to effectively deal with it when it's walking amongst us. Something of an echo of grievance I'd have toward my own Catholic roots when they were intellectually spend time denying evil existed and demand my half of the species be pacifist. I'd love to be pacifist. Don't prey on me or others, and I will be. Same for any one male making his way in one civilization with one God.
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:22 PM
 
7,140 posts, read 5,412,384 times
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Nancy Grace said on her show that their son's started to talk about what happened to their mom the night of the camping trip. They describe that dad had mom in the trunk, then took her into the cave to look for crystals. Mom never came out but dad came out.
They continue to tell Susan's parent that story. Her parents told their other daughter who was on Nancy Grace tonight. She said she had tuck them into bed just Saturday night. So sad.
Josh Powell is a sick human being to do this to those babies.

There was a good point made on Nancy's show. Josh was ordered supervised visitation. Why wasn't it in a public place? Most supervised visitation takes place at a public place according to the attorney's on her show. If that's true, the system once again failed to protect these kids.
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:29 PM
 
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Well even in less dangerous situations people are now standing around and filming incidents with their phones.

About 2 yrs ago an elderly man was hit by a car in Hartford, CT while trying to cross the street and the car took off.

No one came to his aid but people stood there and took pictures of him lying in the road. This is just one example.

There have several fights or people being attacked and people stand there and film it, like it is entertainment.

Today this neighbor woman mentioned grabbing her video camera but never said anything about her or her husband or anyone making any attempt to see if someone was in the house.

Let's just stand there and film so we may get interviewed by Nancy Grace.

What does this all say about the state of this country?
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:16 PM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,837,717 times
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Default The bigger picture of philisophical dysfunction

Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Everyone has rights that are defined and circumscribed by the Constitution.

A child is presumed to have the right and the interest to be raised by his own parents, without a clear and convincing rationale to the contrary. A child who is removed from a non-abusive parent has had his rights violated as surely as a child who is returned to an abusive parent.
Quote:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
What's good for me isn't necessarily good for my children. See my metaphor regarding giving diabetic meds to heart patients. Children's rights are not specifically enumerated, which shouldn't mean it automatically defaults to the tragedy of the commons. Socially, our definitions of abusive/ non abusive parents is extremely weak. That's where I see our greatest shortcoming is happening.

Yes I do understand we are philosophically traversing on a slippery slope risking being too intrusive into peoples personal lives, forcing uniform compliance of philosophies (reliably abused by authoritarians) & institutionally convicting people for pre crime via social services offices. False allegation strategies have abused the law since any concept of law began. But a society being willfully ignorant of abuse to those in most need of defense isn't a just society. Somehow we've got to do better. I cannot stand here and pretend to have all the answers anymore than it would be rational of me to demand you have all the answers carrying a cross so large. I'm not here to go on a blame game witch hunt, or demand government services escalate to a police state to maintain disney world delusions about American society. That said, the fact remains... we're the adults and we're not doing enough.

Fact: a character like Marcus Mosley is not compatible with civilization. Why is the law permitting a man like this to use his own children as human shields to serve his insane agendas? Equal time, if it were a woman, it would be just as evil. My question to you is, why do these people have any rights whatsoever beyond deportation to Antarctic tundra to enjoy their absolutist anarchy freedom in it's fullest sense? Why should the civilization they abuse be forced to protect their 'rights' to prey on said civilization? Applicable to white supremacists and black supremacists alike. Applicable to haves and have nots. Applicable to extremes of left and right putting the rest of us in the crossfire of what is their own demand for therapy traditionally solved on the gallows. This is far more treacherous than mere ideological disagreement, tiffs over boundary issues, or inane sibling rivalries children in the bodies of grown adults carry out.

Beyond all superficial labels of gender, creed, race, blah blah is the singular behavior that just doesn't fly... predatory behavior within our species isn't compatible with civilization. Not when government is used as a tool to prey on citizens, not when 'freedom of religion' permits cult doctrines to prey on the vulnerable, not when commerce preys by profiteering from strife, and not when people prey on one another in a never ending covetous contest. This mental orientation is destructive, particularly to children.

So what's the remedy when a civilization is in effect promoting cannibalism? Are we going to meaningfully confront and correct the moral compass of a civilization engaged in cannibalism? Or are we forever going to be relegated to the nickel and dime section of ultra individualist theories- every man woman and child for themselves- and raise children to be cannibals? Or spend more intellectual capital educating them about self defense from cannibals?
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:25 PM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,837,717 times
Reputation: 2772
Quote:
Originally Posted by seain dublin View Post
Well even in less dangerous situations people are now standing around and filming incidents with their phones.

About 2 yrs ago an elderly man was hit by a car in Hartford, CT while trying to cross the street and the car took off.

No one came to his aid but people stood there and took pictures of him lying in the road. This is just one example.

There have several fights or people being attacked and people stand there and film it, like it is entertainment.

Today this neighbor woman mentioned grabbing her video camera but never said anything about her or her husband or anyone making any attempt to see if someone was in the house.

Let's just stand there and film so we may get interviewed by Nancy Grace.

What does this all say about the state of this country?
It's not just America. A Chinese toddler was run over by a truck numerous times all caught on tape, but the individual recording didn't see fit to put that device down and come to that childs aid and defense. I'm glad Chinese stopped and examined their consciences about how materialism has inflicted harmed their culture. I hope we find a better way. Somehow. I can only say I'm among the willing to roll up her sleeves even if I won't be delivering all the answers. Some of them. Not all of them.
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