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Old 02-08-2012, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 10,038,504 times
Reputation: 19442

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OMG...what a monster!? How on earth the justice system and CPS could ever make such horrendous mistakes is beyond me. Maybe this sounds vindictive....I don't care. If I were Susan's parents, I wouldn't rest until people's heads were on the chopping block. First of all, their daughter is killed by a controlling, manipulative monster. THEN some friggin' judge decides that he should be allowed to have his children.....UNTIL their grandfather is found to have child porn and evidence of voyeurism on his computer...in the same HOME where those poor kids were living. Finally, some judge and social service workers deem that it's appropriate to put those little boys AND a social worker in danger, by allowing IN-HOME visits with those children. This whole situation is sick and disgusting beyond belief!! The monster hacks his children with a HATCHET before burning them alive!!?? Great decisions made by the "justice system".

Like I said, if I was Susan's parents and those boys' grandparent, I would not rest until justice was served and someone paid for their incredible stupidity! Fools allowed this to happen! Fools who should have known better! If I was the social worker, I could never do this job again. This woman is going to be scarred for life. I would never, ever be able to do another in-home visit if I were her.
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Old 02-08-2012, 10:15 AM
 
Location: 39 20' 59"N / 75 30' 53"W
16,085 posts, read 23,883,960 times
Reputation: 17982
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
OMG...what a monster!? How on earth the justice system and CPS could ever make such horrendous mistakes is beyond me. Maybe this sounds vindictive....I don't care. If I were Susan's parents, I wouldn't rest until people's heads were on the chopping block. First of all, their daughter is killed by a controlling, manipulative monster. THEN some friggin' judge decides that he should be allowed to have his children.....UNTIL their grandfather is found to have child porn and evidence of voyeurism on his computer...in the same HOME where those poor kids were living. Finally, some judge and social service workers deem that it's appropriate to put those little boys AND a social worker in danger, by allowing IN-HOME visits with those children. This whole situation is sick and disgusting beyond belief!! The monster hacks his children with a HATCHET before burning them alive!!?? Great decisions made by the "justice system".

Like I said, if I was Susan's parents and those boys' grandparent, I would not rest until justice was served and someone paid for their incredible stupidity! Fools allowed this to happen! Fools who should have known better! If I was the social worker, I could never do this job again. This woman is going to be scarred for life. I would never, ever be able to do another in-home visit if I were her.
Utterly disgusting and avoidable. This happened in your home state, do you have any information on CPS laws and supervised parental visitation in Washington? I googled, but couldn't find much.
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Old 02-08-2012, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 10,038,504 times
Reputation: 19442
Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
Utterly disgusting and avoidable. This happened in your home state, do you have any information on CPS laws and supervised parental visitation in Washington? I googled, but couldn't find much.
I do have personal experience through associates, friends and families in our state and county and those people dropped the BALL!! It is absolutely COMMON Virgode, for the court to assign social workers for supervised visitation, and for those visitations to be held in a public place if there is ANY indication that the home environment is the least bit hinky! Those morons dropped the ball......PERIOD! They are just as reponsible for the deaths of those children as that maniac was! They NEVER should have ever allowed those children back in that house!
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Old 02-08-2012, 07:48 PM
 
9,189 posts, read 9,267,265 times
Reputation: 28774
Quote:
OMG...what a monster!? How on earth the justice system and CPS could ever make such horrendous mistakes is beyond me. Maybe this sounds vindictive....I don't care. If I were Susan's parents, I wouldn't rest until people's heads were on the chopping block. First of all, their daughter is killed by a controlling, manipulative monster. THEN some friggin' judge decides that he should be allowed to have his children.....UNTIL their grandfather is found to have child porn and evidence of voyeurism on his computer...in the same HOME where those poor kids were living. Finally, some judge and social service workers deem that it's appropriate to put those little boys AND a social worker in danger, by allowing IN-HOME visits with those children. This whole situation is sick and disgusting beyond belief!! The monster hacks his children with a HATCHET before burning them alive!!?? Great decisions made by the "justice system".

Unlike many people who primarily use the True Crime Forum to vent, I recognize you, Beachmel, as a responsible poster. I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. You will probably not like my answers.

Obviously, what happened here is a horrific tragedy. It would be nice if we could find a foolproof way to prevent similar events from occurring in the future.

Here is why what you ask is a terrible dilemma.

1. A person is innocent until proven guilty in America. At the time this tragedy happened, Josh Powell hadn't even been charged with his wife's murder.

2. Parents have constitutional rights to visit and parent their children under the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Parents can be deprived of these rights, but only after court proceedings have been undertaken against them for that purpose. No such proceedings had been undertaken against Josh Powell. The court appeared on the road to restricting his visitation, but again that requires a hearing and proof first.

3. Josh Powell had not threatened to injure or harm his children.

4. Suspicion isn't the same thing as proof.

5. False accusations are often made against other family members by angry, spiteful inlaws or other relations.

6. If accusations are taken as "truth" this would create an incentive on the part of countless parents in divorce and other situations to make false and spurious accusations against their ex spouse or the other parent of their child.

7. If YOU or a FAMILY MEMBER were not allowed visitation with your child because of some false allegation that hadn't been proven in court, you'd scream bloody murder and you know it. Suddenly, you'd want the whole system torn apart, so that it would allow you or your family member that visitation.

Finally, a lot of people like to talk about the "justice system".

Actually, the word system is a "misnomer". The system is actually comprised of many independent entities. Social workers work for DCFS which is in the executive branch of government. The courts are part of a separate branch of government known as the judicial branch. Finally, the state legislature makes which is the legislative branch of government makes the laws that the executive branch carries out and the judicial branch interprets.

Does that sound like a "system" to you? Its not really a system at all. Its a collection of separate entities which are kept separate based on the idea that only a government comprised of diffuse entities and branches can be kept small enough so that it doesn't take away our freedom. Have a problem with that? The people to take it up with would be our Founding Fathers who drafted a Constitution providing for separation of powers.

The bottom line: I'm sick about what happened too. However, the fault doesn't lie with the courts or the social workers here. It lies with Josh Powell. It also possibly lies with taxpayers who balk at having to fund entities like DCFS adequately. It may lie with US Supreme Court for making it so incredibly difficult to terminate parent rights or restrict visitation. However, those same rulings may be what keeps our own families from being terminated by zealous bureaucrats and politicians. Reform is always worth considering. However, it is a slippery slope and it can have all kinds of ramifications that are difficult to forsee.
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Old 02-08-2012, 08:15 PM
 
Location: The Cascade Foothills
10,953 posts, read 8,683,671 times
Reputation: 6459
It looks like there is going to be an investigation into why the 9-1-1 dispatcher kept the caseworker on the phone for seven minutes, telling her he (the dispatcher) would have the "first available" officer contact her.

I think we all agree that there wasn't anything the caseworker could have done; if a grown man slams the door in your face and locks it, what can you do?

But there is some question about the delay caused by the dispatcher. In this case, if he had dispatched an officer to the scene immediately, it probably would have still been too late, it all happened so quickly.

But, hopefully, this will change how these situations are treated in the future - NO supervised visitation in the home, possibly more than one caseworker attending the visitation, how 9-1-1 reacts, etc. and hopefully there will never be another tragedy like this.

I also heard on the noon news that the senior Powell IS being investigated in the disappearance of Susan.
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:40 PM
 
740 posts, read 1,879,033 times
Reputation: 924
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The bottom line: I'm sick about what happened too. However, the fault doesn't lie with the courts or the social workers here. It lies with Josh Powell. It also possibly lies with taxpayers who balk at having to fund entities like DCFS adequately. It may lie with US Supreme Court for making it so incredibly difficult to terminate parent rights or restrict visitation. However, those same rulings may be what keeps our own families from being terminated by zealous bureaucrats and politicians. Reform is always worth considering. However, it is a slippery slope and it can have all kinds of ramifications that are difficult to forsee.
Good post. People need to realize that hindsight is 20/20 and the decisions made were based on the information available at the time.
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Old 02-09-2012, 12:17 AM
 
Location: 39 20' 59"N / 75 30' 53"W
16,085 posts, read 23,883,960 times
Reputation: 17982
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Does that sound like a "system" to you? Its not really a system at all. Its a collection of separate entities which are kept separate based on the idea that only a government comprised of diffuse entities and branches can be kept small enough so that it doesn't take away our freedom. Have a problem with that? The people to take it up with would be our Founding Fathers who drafted a Constitution providing for separation of powers.

The bottom line: I'm sick about what happened too. However, the fault doesn't lie with the courts or the social workers here. It lies with Josh Powell. It also possibly lies with taxpayers who balk at having to fund entities like DCFS adequately. It may lie with US Supreme Court for making it so incredibly difficult to terminate parent rights or restrict visitation. However, those same rulings may be what keeps our own families from being terminated by zealous bureaucrats and politicians. Reform is always worth considering. However, it is a slippery slope and it can have all kinds of ramifications that are difficult to forsee.
Your posts are informative and helpful.

The bottom line, if supervised visitation were strictly limited to a DCFS location, the 2 Powell boys would be alive.
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 10,038,504 times
Reputation: 19442
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Unlike many people who primarily use the True Crime Forum to vent, I recognize you, Beachmel, as a responsible poster. I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. You will probably not like my answers.

Obviously, what happened here is a horrific tragedy. It would be nice if we could find a foolproof way to prevent similar events from occurring in the future.

Here is why what you ask is a terrible dilemma.

1. A person is innocent until proven guilty in America. At the time this tragedy happened, Josh Powell hadn't even been charged with his wife's murder.

2. Parents have constitutional rights to visit and parent their children under the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Parents can be deprived of these rights, but only after court proceedings have been undertaken against them for that purpose. No such proceedings had been undertaken against Josh Powell. The court appeared on the road to restricting his visitation, but again that requires a hearing and proof first.

3. Josh Powell had not threatened to injure or harm his children.

4. Suspicion isn't the same thing as proof.

5. False accusations are often made against other family members by angry, spiteful inlaws or other relations.

6. If accusations are taken as "truth" this would create an incentive on the part of countless parents in divorce and other situations to make false and spurious accusations against their ex spouse or the other parent of their child.

7. If YOU or a FAMILY MEMBER were not allowed visitation with your child because of some false allegation that hadn't been proven in court, you'd scream bloody murder and you know it. Suddenly, you'd want the whole system torn apart, so that it would allow you or your family member that visitation.

Finally, a lot of people like to talk about the "justice system".

Actually, the word system is a "misnomer". The system is actually comprised of many independent entities. Social workers work for DCFS which is in the executive branch of government. The courts are part of a separate branch of government known as the judicial branch. Finally, the state legislature makes which is the legislative branch of government makes the laws that the executive branch carries out and the judicial branch interprets.

Does that sound like a "system" to you? Its not really a system at all. Its a collection of separate entities which are kept separate based on the idea that only a government comprised of diffuse entities and branches can be kept small enough so that it doesn't take away our freedom. Have a problem with that? The people to take it up with would be our Founding Fathers who drafted a Constitution providing for separation of powers.

The bottom line: I'm sick about what happened too. However, the fault doesn't lie with the courts or the social workers here. It lies with Josh Powell. It also possibly lies with taxpayers who balk at having to fund entities like DCFS adequately. It may lie with US Supreme Court for making it so incredibly difficult to terminate parent rights or restrict visitation. However, those same rulings may be what keeps our own families from being terminated by zealous bureaucrats and politicians. Reform is always worth considering. However, it is a slippery slope and it can have all kinds of ramifications that are difficult to forsee.
Thanks mark for not tearing me apart. I still say...big mistake. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have been allowed to see those kids, just not in his home. Hopefully, there will be some changes in "the system", which will help to protect kids in the future. BTW, I'm not tearing that liason apart. I'm sure that woman is tearing her hear out, crying her eyes out, sick to her stomach, eaten alive with guilt, trying to figure out where she went wrong and how she could have done something to stop that tragedy. Of course, if reports are true, she's probably furious with the 911 "system" that let her down, too.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:59 AM
 
5,273 posts, read 6,551,921 times
Reputation: 14922
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
Thanks mark for not tearing me apart. I still say...big mistake. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have been allowed to see those kids, just not in his home. Hopefully, there will be some changes in "the system", which will help to protect kids in the future. BTW, I'm not tearing that liason apart. I'm sure that woman is tearing her hear out, crying her eyes out, sick to her stomach, eaten alive with guilt, trying to figure out where she went wrong and how she could have done something to stop that tragedy. Of course, if reports are true, she's probably furious with the 911 "system" that let her down, too.

After hearing the 911 tape on NGrace last night I was just dumbfounded! 7 minutes with dispatch. The woman was clueless on the other end. The poor caseworker. I felt so bad for her... The house blew up, then dispatcher says, oh I'll direct you to the Fire Dept! ( The caseworker already said she smelled gas fumes (never directing her to fire dept. to begin with! and then the house blew up minutes later!). I hope our system changes soon! What a nightmare for those boys and grandparents.
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Old 02-09-2012, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 10,038,504 times
Reputation: 19442
Quote:
Originally Posted by njsocks View Post
After hearing the 911 tape on NGrace last night I was just dumbfounded! 7 minutes with dispatch. The woman was clueless on the other end. The poor caseworker. I felt so bad for her... The house blew up, then dispatcher says, oh I'll direct you to the Fire Dept! ( The caseworker already said she smelled gas fumes (never directing her to fire dept. to begin with! and then the house blew up minutes later!). I hope our system changes soon! What a nightmare for those boys and grandparents.
Can you just imagine NJ? OMG....can you imagine the things going through her head?.....the panic she was feeling?....how pi$$ed off she probably was, knowing in her heart, "Something is so very WRONG here! Help ME! God, someone HELP me!" It would be like a non-swimming person watching a child drowning.....but no one would help!
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