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Old 02-12-2012, 08:56 PM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,837,717 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
Whether the grandparents did or didn't recognize the danger doesn't put them in a position to alter the events and outcome.
Yes and no- being armchair warriors after the fact, I agree, but maintaining ignorance, I disagree.

There's a documentary about Timothy Treadwell that I hope you will contemplate when considering how free society can function when evil can erupt anywhere at anytime. Timothy was a grown man who had deluded himself into the belief that bears were an extension of his childhood love of stuffed animals. Sweetness and light kumbaya. Denying that evil or harm exists (clicking our heals like Dorothy wishing it were so) believing it to being proof of our 'goodness' or sainthood ourselves is a dangerous mentality for ordinary citizens to lull themselves into. No matter how much civilization has been able to accomplish, it cannot deliver a sterile anti bacterial world without killing you. You have intestinal flora that are keeping you alive as we speak. Not an accusation leveled against you, just an illustration how ideologies can be pushed so far they become contrary to their stated mission objectives. It's how a man can delude himself killing 50 people a day in an asbestos plant is 'making a living'.

Paraphrasing Bible, we are to be as innocent as children, but that did not mean we had the luxury of being oblivious to evil while we reside in adult bodies with adult responsibilities (to ourselves, our families, and our community). We need to be fully aware of it. No adult can be an adult without that awareness and it's vital to the health of democracy. I'm not implying anyone drag this grieving couple through muck because they learned this obliviousness from somewhere too. I'm just trying to get across that breaking the cycle of oblivious & meaningful self defense training needs to be a priority in national education. In religious education. Across the board.

The world is not Disney land. That isn't something that can be delivered by anyone. Only God has that power and too many people seem to expect the government or their Church to be their personal benevolent God. It can't be manifested. No mortal has that power. The only thing that can happen carrying around those kinds of expectations is that clever hucksters will be attracted to peddle them everything they want to hear, and nothing they NEED to hear. They are in effect demanding to be entertained, not educated. Putting ourselves in the business of pandering to vanity/ false pride is not in anyones best interest. It only digs the hole deeper & habituates them further. Identical pattern of addiction. Isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
I don't believe Josh Powell or his father have any shame. Shame indicates theres a conscience. Sociopaths and evil have no conscience. Their only concern is the discovery of their maladjusted minds.
I'm unable to follow your logic. If Josh Powell had no conscience whatsoever, he could have carried on pretending he was innocent, indifferently abandoned his sons to 'the system' or fled out of the country as Christian Longo did. I tend to agree his father, on the other hand, is shameless. Grinning like an idiot in perp walks. Can't convict 100% on a photo but I believe the more digging they do the more likely they'll find monsters running amok in his head. Some men fight their demons, while others make no pretense about it and egg them on. The kind of individual who would unleash a pack of pit bulls on a school yard just to enjoy the 'creative' act of carnage.

Nolo contendere Josh had a maladjusted mind. Where did that maladjustment come from? The evil queen of fairy tales twisting others around her finger appears to be his father.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:35 PM
 
Location: SWFL
22,850 posts, read 19,286,589 times
Reputation: 21211
Quote:
Originally Posted by harborlady View Post
You are demanding that all 911 dispatchers operate at the skill level of FBI and PhD experts in abnormal psychology but only want to pay them minimum wage. Then complain about taxes? Who has irrational expectations and demanding free lunch? Think, please.
Did I say I wanted a "free lunch"? I PAY MY TAXES, sweetie. I get NADA for free. Whereas my taxes do give others free stuff.

I am demanding COMMON SENSE prevail in the 911 job. Is it irrational to expect someone have COMMON SENSE on this job? Is it irrational to expect no attitude on this job? Is it irrartional to expect these people to act as if someone's life depended on them???? I also do not complain about my taxes, honey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
These women have a damaged personal history and gravitate to the familiar; control, abuse, and maladjusted individuals.

According to Susan Powells diary she was unhappy, suicidal as a teen, and abused by her parents. The parents deny the accusation, I question their honesty.

Theres no question what a women who sees her husbands moral compass going out of control should do....silence, never confront the situation, and make a plan to leave.
Virgode, I had an unhappy teenage childhood also and I said stuff that was "against" my parents too. I am ashamed of myself now....now that I realize that they only could see the bad road I was heading on and were trying to prevent/protect me.

On the other hand, I have a 40 year old kid that accuses me to this very day of an act of violence that NEVER happened! I don't know where it came from to this day! It is a FALSE memory and nothing I say will erase it!!! (I think it was put into her head by her step-mother) You have NO IDEA what it is like to accused falsely and not be able to "prove" one's self. 38 years later, it is still a major point of contention. Drives me nutz!!!!!
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:22 AM
 
Location: 39 20' 59"N / 75 30' 53"W
16,085 posts, read 23,879,978 times
Reputation: 17982
Quote:
Originally Posted by harborlady View Post
Nolo contendere Josh had a maladjusted mind. Where did that maladjustment come from? The evil queen of fairy tales twisting others around her finger appears to be his father.
mal·ad·just·ed (ml-jstd) adj. 2. Inadequately adjusted to the demands or stresses of daily living.

Applies to Josh more so than the father.

I don't see much conscience there for either father or son.

Last edited by virgode; 02-13-2012 at 06:51 AM..
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:48 AM
 
Location: 39 20' 59"N / 75 30' 53"W
16,085 posts, read 23,879,978 times
Reputation: 17982
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiznluv View Post

Virgode, I had an unhappy teenage childhood also and I said stuff that was "against" my parents too. I am ashamed of myself now....now that I realize that they only could see the bad road I was heading on and were trying to prevent/protect me.

On the other hand, I have a 40 year old kid that accuses me to this very day of an act of violence that NEVER happened! I don't know where it came from to this day! It is a FALSE memory and nothing I say will erase it!!! (I think it was put into her head by her step-mother) You have NO IDEA what it is like to accused falsely and not be able to "prove" one's self. 38 years later, it is still a major point of contention. Drives me nutz!!!!!
The diaries could be her false teenage perceptions.

If her SIL had the ability to recognize her father and brothers problems growing up, and make a decision as an adult to stay away, why was Susan attracted to the controlling, obssesive, unconscionble?

Women who are attracted to a man like Josh have issues of their own and find themselves in unhealthy relationships. My assumption about the parents may be incorrect. However, it would fit the pattern and the reason I'm reluctant to believe them.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:30 AM
 
5,273 posts, read 6,551,309 times
Reputation: 14922
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaWoman View Post
Average person here typing ... innocent people may go to jail ... but the guilty often walk free.

I am sure the majority of the average people posting on True Crime have no desire whatsoever to see an innocent person incarcerated.

As to the Powell case he is dead, his wife is dead and two beautiful little boys are dead. He killed them that is a fact ... perhaps there is no evidence that he killed Susan but he certainly is guilty of killing his two sons.

After Susan Powell disappeared her family was not allowed (by Josh) to see the two boys for over a year. After Josh moved in with his alleged (to meet your Law 101 requirements I am using alleged) perverted father that is when Susan's parents received custody of the two boys.

The case worker couldn't do one thing, Powell had his plan in place and carried it out. If whatever was on his computer had been handled in a different manner perhaps the outcome would be different ... but that is hindsight. I just hurt for Susan's family losing their daughter and grandsons.
Carolina- most here are of above average intelligence with the exception of one or two!


Quote:
OMG...... I have a million things to say in response to this person but I'm so angry, I can't.
Tamiz- I won't even dignify the person with a response. Just not worth it.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:34 AM
 
Location: 39 20' 59"N / 75 30' 53"W
16,085 posts, read 23,879,978 times
Reputation: 17982
Quote:
Originally Posted by harborlady View Post
Yes and no- being armchair warriors after the fact, I agree, but maintaining ignorance, I disagree.

My interpretation of what you're saying, the grandparents denied seeing the danger with Josh Powell?

People will deny what they don't want to see for many reasons.

You'll need to explain further.
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:44 AM
 
Location: SWFL
22,850 posts, read 19,286,589 times
Reputation: 21211
Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
The diaries could be her false teenage perceptions.

If her SIL had the ability to recognize her father and brothers problems growing up, and make a decision as an adult to stay away, why was Susan attracted to the controlling, obssesive, unconscionble?

Women who are attracted to a man like Josh have issues of their own and find themselves in unhealthy relationships. My assumption about the parents may be incorrect. However, it would fit the pattern and the reason I'm reluctant to believe them.
Maybe Susan didn't see it when she was dating Josh. Maybe she thought it was showing "love" if he showed some jealousy. Maybe the elder Powell didn't come off as the perv he is...there were no children yet. People put on their best faces when dating remember.

I'm confused here. What "pattern" are you talking about? Susan's? Yes, I agree. The grandparents? IDK what you mean then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
My interpretation of what you're saying, the grandparents denied seeing the danger with Josh Powell?

People will deny what they don't want to see for many reasons.

You'll need to explain further.
I'm sure the parents saw the "real" Josh way before the poop hit the fan but they may have kept their thoughts to themselves. Some people have the strength to MYOB. That's a real slippery slope...interferring in your kid's marriage. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I am "assuming" the gparents are "normal" people, so they may have never thought their keeping quiet would lead to this tradgedy. Most people can not think like a psycho so that's why "we" are stunned when these things happen. Even I, with my black feelings deep down, get stunned all the time.

I would like that person to explain further also.
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:21 AM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,837,717 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaWoman View Post
I don't have a tabloid mentality but I have spent a great deal of volunteer time in a local Abused and Battered Shelter. At that time I even included my high school daughters to visit the shelter and read stories or just play with young children there in the shelter with their mothers.
I already admitted I seriously suck at diplomacy, so I'm asking for your tolerance. I didn't intend to imply that comment belonged to you, but a cautionary tale for all. After petitioning this thread be reopened I was trying to get people to look at things outside of the boxes that have worn out their welcome. Folks get too stuck in magic bullet blame games and the truth/ evidence gets buried. Then there's the wrath of God smugness some pass off as charity enjoying the suffering of others. These are the people we share the world with but those who lack good intention to solve anything don't contribute to this thread. Rather than risk sliding down the slope of gossips or derailed by misinformation, it's best we orientate ourselves constructively about where things go wrong and how to change course. And I'm glad you did...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaWoman View Post
...If she had something for supper he didn't like he would throw the food at her along with his plate. He would grab both arms and shake her (bruises on the arms!) When she told us just some of the things I could not believe my daughter that did volunteer work at an Abused Shelter and was raised in a home with no violence would live in that for three years.

So how is it taught?
How is it she did not see something very wrong the first time it occurred?
How is it that people believe this is a normal part of marriage?
How is it that marriage would ever be conceived of as a zero sum game of supremacy by either gender?
How is it that women believe the definition of womanhood= punching bag? That when they stand up for themselves= failure to be feminine and ought to mean social/ legal/ religious punishment or rebuke?

Being used for target practice isn't anything a human being ought to graciously 'tolerate' but American culture continues to demand that high road of perfection of us (womankind) surely as it demands high road of perfection heroism of mankind. Those you speak of- I know. It's heartbreaking. I'm no pro and I can't tell you I know how to reach them. Their behavior reminds me of children convinced if only they walk sideways on their hands careful to avoid cracks their parents won't abuse them. They spend a lifetime walking around lured by promises of love that is never given because it's familiar to them. Like cruelly dangling food in front of a starving human being. They do not appear to know what love is, and when the real thing is offered they tend to lash out, run from it, or concoct tests it until it breaks just to disprove it ever existed. Extreme cases the bravery is just beat out of them and the rest of their lives resemble one long suicide watch. I stare at a woman like Hedda Nussbaum and I'm aghast where this blind obedience, this utter denial of herself, came from.

The older ones aren't as forthcoming, but dig into the stories of the poorer & younger ones you almost always find something, or numerous things, got in the way of their esteem building as children. Fruit; They became convinced they were born to be snake food. A good read that I can attest is 100% accurate depiction of childhood poverty blowing like tumbleweeds... Amazon.com: Girlchild: A Novel (9780374162573): Tupelo Hassman: Books

More than that I can't say... Just a Joanna apple seed sitting on a bench minding lost souls and stray animals. Too many of both in America and I don't mind telling you getting threatened with assault for a labor of love America holds in contempt always stunk. I don't envy clergy or cops one bit but I like to believe I'm lightening their load. I could be kidding myself. Lord knows and I'll leave it up there.

One delusion youth, particularly young ladies could stand to have busted flat before they start allowing their imaginations to run away with them is the notion that relationships/ marriage cures mental disease (within themselves or their partners). No amount of powder and paint, well rehearsed charm, or a shiny ring is ever going to magically erase what isn't right inside. Marriage for some is a safe haven from the world, and for others, it's a safe haven to avoid ever facing themselves fully as adults. It's 'someone else's job' and they're inclined to live vicariously through another. They appear to me the highest at risk.
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:57 AM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,837,717 times
Reputation: 2772
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiznluv View Post
I am demanding COMMON SENSE prevail in the 911 job. Is it irrational to expect someone have COMMON SENSE on this job?
Where I sit you're expecting clairvoyance from 911 dispatchers. The details of circumstances cannot be verbally relayed by someone who is unclear what is going on herself. Now can it?
It's similar to the nature of emergency medicine. I'm having a heart attack but I'm talking about dizziness, back pain, and an argument I had with my kids. Unless you're trained what symptoms are signs of something acute and life threatening, I'm going to die of collective ignorance in a waiting room. That's why we have triage staff. It's also why they make more. Until you do these jobs you just don't know.

If this were a courtroom or a town hall meeting, I'd be escorting you out because you aren't contributing anything but neediness. Where I stand you're part of the problem when a grown adult would animate themselves to compete with 2 dead adults and 2 dead children to satisfy personal world view demands. I will not be responding directly to you any further in this thread until you address how 'family values' could become so corrupted as to create this nightmare. Carry on as you have been, the only thing you're contributing to this thread is vicariously, third party narrative- you're making an object lesson of yourself.

I ask that no one hit that TOS button and no moderator intervene.
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:13 PM
 
18,852 posts, read 31,698,893 times
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The 911 operator was not responsible for the deaths of these boys. Even if the police had arrived earlier, the outcome would have been the same. However, the 911 operator response does merit review for other cases, when a CPS social worker calls for an emergency police back up.

CPS is not responsible for the deaths of those children either. Most people don't think that a Father will blow up his home, with his sons in it. There is not clear evidence that the Father was a danger to himself or others...note, I did say "clear and convincing evidence"...So, this too will be looked at in terms of changing methods of operation for CPS.

We can argue this from all sides, but in the end...Josh Powell was the person who is ultimately responsible for the entire tragedy. Sadly.

And it is situations like this, that change methods of operation. I know this from my own job...we had a tragic accident years ago...and since then, we have double checks, and triple checks to avoid an incident, that seemed completely stupid...but a chain of events happened, and there was no clear documentation of who caused the problem, it was everyone involved...and what we did was analyze the situation, and changed policies and procedures, so that it won't happen again...as will no doubt happen in this situation.
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