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Old 09-08-2011, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,724,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOriginalMrsX View Post
LMAO! Cats are a character. The dog gets along great with our cat. Sometimes you see them cuddled up in bed together. Its funny at night after she and the dog have their dinner, the cat will sit at the door and stare directly into my eyes trying to will me to open the door to let her out for the night. Then early in the morning she will tap at our bedroom window to say 'Hey let me in!'
I love the If I stare at you long enough you'll do what I want game. I have one who knocks to be let in too. Too funny.

I had a cat, years ago, who would go looking for the door into summer. If we opened the door and he didn't like the weather, he had to check all the other doors to make sure the weather wasn't better there. He also HAD to come in the door he went out.

And then there were the two who had a friend who was a skunk!!!! Dh walked out onto the deck one day to see our two cats sunning themselves with a skunk between them. Surprisingly, they never got sprayed.

 
Old 09-08-2011, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 45,010,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I agree that parents should protect children and they should start by not owning dogs that will attack an innocent baby who did NOTHING to provoke the attack. THAT is a viscious animal. That baby couldn't have done anything to provoke the attack. The dogs just decided to kill the baby. That fits my definition of viscious and non pet worthy.
As humans we may not understand what provoked the attack, but in the dog's eyes there was probably a reason behind it... that doesn't make it okay, but don't assume it was completely without reason. Thus, the logic behind not leaving a baby alone with a dog - or any uncaged animal, for that matter.

Quote:
You're missing that we don't NEED dogs. You don't have to have a "pet" (I use the term loosely with animals that have to be trained and dominated to be kept in their place) that is a danger to your children. There are plenty of pets who won't hurt your kids.
Who's missing that? A few have said dogs aren't for everyone, and I even said children and dogs don't always mix. So of course nobody NEEDS any pet, but many of us understand their nature, appreciate the positive things they bring to our lives (a dog's undying love and loyalty is like no other!), and are willing to put in the time for training. And let's not forget, the vast majority of pet dogs don't attack children, and don't even require extensive training. I did two 6-week sessions at PetSmart when Rudy (my dog) was a puppy, and a couple of private 1-hour sessions about a year later - that's all I needed, and he's generally very well-behaved.

People often ask why I own snakes, especially when they're ignorant enough to believe my small non-venomous snakes are "dangerous" (they're not). They ask why I'd have a pet who you can't "cuddle" with, which is a stupid premise to begin with - considering many popular pets don't cuddle, like fish, and also not realizing there are plenty of other reasons to own a pet. They also dont know a few of my snakes DO "cuddle," like my Western Hognose who loves curling in my lap as I watch television.

Anyway, point being that everyone has their own idea of what makes a good pet, and that's our prerogative as adult humans... and judging by a few things you've said on here, I would agree you're not meant to own a dog!!

Last edited by gizmo980; 09-08-2011 at 06:52 PM..
 
Old 09-08-2011, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,724,367 times
Reputation: 14583
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
As humans we may not understand what provoked the attack, but in the dog's eyes there was probably a reason behind it... that doesn't make it okay, but don't assume it was completely without reason. Thus, the logic behind not leaving a baby alone with a dog - or any uncaged animal, for that matter.

You're missing that we don't NEED dogs. You don't have to have a "pet" (I use the term loosely with animals that have to be trained and dominated to be kept in their place) that is a danger to your children. There are plenty of pets who won't hurt your kids.
Of course nobody NEEDS any pet, but many of us understand their nature, appreciate the positive things they bring to our lives (a dog's undying love and loyalty is like no other!), and are willing to put in the time for training. And let's not forget, the vast majority of pet dogs don't attack children, and don't even require extensive training. I did two 6-week sessions at PetSmart when Rudy (my dog) was a puppy, and a couple of private 1-hour sessions about a year later - that's all I needed, and he's generally very well-behaved.


People often ask why I own snakes, especially when they're ignorant enough to believe a small non-venomous constrictor is "dangerous" (they're not). They ask why I'd have a pet who you can't "cuddle" with, which is a stupid premise to begin with - considering many popular pets don't cuddle, like fish, and also not realizing there are plenty of other reasons to own a pet. They also dont know a few of my snakes DO "cuddle," like my Western Hognose who loves curling next to my lap as I watch television.

Anyway, point being that everyone has their own idea of what makes a good pet, and that's our prerogative as adult humans... and judging by a few things you've said on here, I would agree you're not meant to own a dog!!
I never said it was without reason. That's the problem, these are dogs that think they have reason to kill!!! They shouldn't be family pets.

Color me confused but I just think it's risky to have as a pet a pack animal that might think it has reason to kill small members of the family. I just don't think you take the risk. Any animal who shows any, unprovoked, aggression towards a baby or child should be put to sleep.

Funny you mention snakes. I found out our day care provider had a constrictor when dd was 3 months old when I came in to pick her up and they had the vents opened. I about had a heart attack. Until I saw the snake. It was tiny BALL constrictor.

I can see keeping animals but the problem with dogs is the human has to be part of the pack. Dogs are the only animals I can think you do that with. My fish don't have a pack (actually, Goldzilla has eaten all of his little friends so he's a loaner now - dd won him at a carnival and he grew into a monster and started eating the other fish.) and my rabbits don't have a pack. My cats just kind of live here. That's how cats are. They look at you as if to say "You're lucky I tolerate you" when they're the ones being fed and having their poop scooped. I think they think we're supposed to think it's a privilidge.
 
Old 09-08-2011, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 45,010,327 times
Reputation: 20425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I never said it was without reason. That's the problem, these are dogs that think they have reason to kill!!! They shouldn't be family pets.

Color me confused but I just think it's risky to have as a pet a pack animal that might think it has reason to kill small members of the family. I just don't think you take the risk. Any animal who shows any, unprovoked, aggression towards a baby or child should be put to sleep.
But as I said earlier, pet dogs who attack humans (especially to KILL) are pretty rare... I'm sure you know many people who own dogs, and have any of them killed a human before? Of all the dog owners I know, I can honestly say ZERO of them have killed anyone - and only the Malamute I mentioned yesterday has even bitten somebody & left a mark. So for the most part, dogs make a wonderful family pet, especially when they are properly trained. And if you really wanted a dog in a household with children, small breeds are much less of a liability. Chihuahuas can be mean as spit sometimes, but at least a bite from them won't be fatal. Know what I mean?

As for putting them to sleep, I only support that "solution" when they're aggressive beyond repair... or if it's aggression caused by a medical or neurological defect. In most cases they can be trained & reprogrammed, or re-homed with somebody who doesn't have children and/or has experience in handling aggressive dogs. Killing them should be the LAST resort, and it really ticks me off how quickly people will do that. As I've already asked (but nobody has answered), would you kill your human child if they had behavioral issues? I work around kids every day at the library, and believe me - there are some mega brats that would be euthanized if they were dogs.

Quote:
Funny you mention snakes. I found out our day care provider had a constrictor when dd was 3 months old when I came in to pick her up and they had the vents opened. I about had a heart attack. Until I saw the snake. It was tiny BALL constrictor.
LOL... about half of my snakes are Ball Pythons, and the rest are small constrictors (with the exception of one Hognose). But people hear "Python" or even "snake," and automatically think it's going to kill them! Meanwhile, my cat can do more damage than any of my snakes.

Quote:
I can see keeping animals but the problem with dogs is the human has to be part of the pack. Dogs are the only animals I can think you do that with. My fish don't have a pack (actually, Goldzilla has eaten all of his little friends so he's a loaner now - dd won him at a carnival and he grew into a monster and started eating the other fish.) and my rabbits don't have a pack. My cats just kind of live here. That's how cats are. They look at you as if to say "You're lucky I tolerate you" when they're the ones being fed and having their poop scooped. I think they think we're supposed to think it's a privilidge.
The whole pack thing isn't really a huge issue, and most dogs are quickly/easily established in your household... there's a clear pecking order at my house, but that also extends to the 3 cats. In fact, I think they care more than he does about who's in charge!

P.S. Here's an old saying for you: "In ancient times, cats were worshiped as gods... they haven't let us forget it since."
 
Old 09-08-2011, 10:03 PM
 
Location: On the Ohio River in Western, KY
3,388 posts, read 5,741,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingforhome22 View Post
thats true the dogs will act different way before just attacking in most cases.....there is a reality that bringing a baby into a house with dogs, especially older ones can casue behavior issues. However you have the responsibility to try to adress the issue and reolve it if possible. If not resolvable you have the responsibility to find the dog a good safe home, not a shelter.

I fully agree!

I have had animal agressive dogs before (mostly rescues), and I am a HUGE fan of crate and rotate, during training. I aslo crate my animals when we are not home, just in case.
 
Old 09-08-2011, 10:12 PM
 
Location: On the Ohio River in Western, KY
3,388 posts, read 5,741,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I agree that parents should protect children and they should start by not owning dogs that will attack an innocent baby who did NOTHING to provoke the attack. THAT is a viscious animal. That baby couldn't have done anything to provoke the attack. The dogs just decided to kill the baby. That fits my definition of viscious and non pet worthy.

You're missing that we don't NEED dogs. You don't have to have a "pet" (I use the term loosely with animals that have to be trained and dominated to be kept in their place) that is a danger to your children. There are plenty of pets who won't hurt your kids.
And you are completely missing the point. A baby squeals and sounds like FOOD. Deep down canines still have pack instincts and mentalities. Just as ALL animals do. (including and especially humans)

This attack probably wasn't motivated by agression, as much as it was instinct for food. Face it, infants are small, helpless, defenseless, and sound like other prey foods. That = easy meal.

Before you go too far down the "peta path" with the we don't "need dogs" thing; there are MANY people who have dogs to survive. Much more so that cats, BTW. Therapy dogs, service dogs, SNR, K-9, ......ALL are needed, and fulfill a purpose that another human might not be able to do.

Yes, pets like goldfish. (That's about the only non-dangerous pet I can think of, unless of course the kiddo swallows the fish whole and chokes....) But not all kids want a fish; not to mention fish can't guard the house, defend you against intruders, keep you warm in bed at night, and play fetch.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 12:35 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 45,010,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cav Scout wife View Post
And you are completely missing the point. A baby squeals and sounds like FOOD. Deep down canines still have pack instincts and mentalities. Just as ALL animals do. (including and especially humans)

This attack probably wasn't motivated by agression, as much as it was instinct for food. Face it, infants are small, helpless, defenseless, and sound like other prey foods. That = easy meal.
Good point, and again a GREAT reason not to leave your dog alone with a baby... bottom line, the parents were to blame in this story. Sad that an infant had to lose their life as a result.

Quote:
Before you go too far down the "peta path" with the we don't "need dogs" thing; there are MANY people who have dogs to survive. Much more so that cats, BTW. Therapy dogs, service dogs, SNR, K-9, ......ALL are needed, and fulfill a purpose that another human might not be able to do.

Yes, pets like goldfish. (That's about the only non-dangerous pet I can think of, unless of course the kiddo swallows the fish whole and chokes....) But not all kids want a fish; not to mention fish can't guard the house, defend you against intruders, keep you warm in bed at night, and play fetch.
More good points! I used to live in a REALLY bad neighborhood, and one night I heard somebody trying to climb my fence around 3am... Rudy immediately bolted through the dog door, and charged the fence like a freakin' bull. The potential intruder fell off the fence, and ran as fast as his feet could carry him. Rudy guarded the yard until morning, reminding me of (one reason) why I have a dog - and this is a dog who's usually super human-friendly, but he knows his primary job is to protect me.

And lest we forget the emotional support they provide... I dare you to get through these videos without crying.


Seeing my dog the day I got back from Afghanistan - YouTube


Dog hugs a soldier returning home! - YouTube


R&R Welcome - Two dogs welcome home soldier - YouTube
 
Old 09-09-2011, 06:51 AM
 
8,266 posts, read 10,705,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow View Post
But that is not what humans do. Humans neglect their kids out of laziness or sheer stupidity and/or abuse their kids because they've gone crazy or they do it with malicious intent.

Animals do not kill their own with malice and they do not ignore their own because they are lazy or stupid. That's the difference.
I don't agree with this.

Animals are quite capable ignoring/neglecting their young and making poor decisions raising them that result in their young being injured or killed. No malice? Tell that to any lion cubs around when a new male takes over the pride.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 08:57 AM
 
9,184 posts, read 9,265,199 times
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Quote:
I don't agree with this.

Animals are quite capable ignoring/neglecting their young and making poor decisions raising them that result in their young being injured or killed. No malice? Tell that to any lion cubs around when a new male takes over the pride.
Animals are fine, but I have no great fondness for them. Some people have always attempted to romanticize animals or attach to them noble human characteristics. I see this as wrong. Ultimately an animal is an animal and a person is a person.

In my career, I've represented small children who have been severely bitten by dogs. Generally, I would blame pet owners as opposed to the pets themselves for what happened. However, I do remember situations that were unpredictable and caught everyone by surprise. A dog which had been peaceful for years attacked a 3 year old child and severely bit his face. The child was not attempting to play with the dog or threaten it in any manner. I remember as a child walking out on to the back porch of my home just as a large St. Bernard wandered into our yard. The dog let out a growl and came running for me on my own porch. I got in the house in time to stop being attacked. I can remember being terrorized as a child by several dogs when I was a newspaper carrier for a brief period of time. Some would come out in the street and bare their teeth, growling at me.

We own two cats and what I have observed about them as the larger cat repeatedly tries to "bully" or threaten the weaker cat. The weaker cat has to be fed with supervision to make sure the other cat does not take its food.

I believe that owners of dogs should have to be financially responsible in case the animal harms another. I don't believe those bit by dogs should have to go through the process of having to prove that the owner of the animal "knew" it had violent propensities or was dangerous. Unless someone is burglarizing your home, if your dog bites that person, you should be financially responsible for the harm that the animal did period.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 09:34 AM
 
9,524 posts, read 4,865,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
That's why I don't want a dog. To me a pet isn't worth having if it has to be dominated and trained. I'd rather leave an animal that needs that kind of "training" in the wild. That's where they belong.

I understand working dogs like leader dogs or farm dogs. It's worth training them because of the human benefit. The only benefit I can see to the average dog owner is they get something they can Lord over and I don't see the attraction there. I guess I just don't need something I have to dominate.

I wouldn't have a wild cat for the same reasons. Some animals are just not pet material. They're too wild to be pets.
You must have encountered some mean, self-centered dog owners in your life. I think most dog owners are Lorded Over by their dogs. I do know people who didn't think through the effect on their lives of having a dog and regretted the decision. I don't know anyone who got one to have something to dominate.
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