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Old 09-09-2011, 10:18 AM
 
2,064 posts, read 6,015,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzarama View Post
You must have encountered some mean, self-centered dog owners in your life. I think most dog owners are Lorded Over by their dogs. I do know people who didn't think through the effect on their lives of having a dog and regretted the decision. I don't know anyone who got one to have something to dominate.
Me either. My dogs are my buddies, walking partners, my kid's best friend's, a darn good footwarmer... Sure, you have to set up the rules so that they know their place in the pecking order, but I wouldn't call that dominating them or "lording" over them. It is similar to children. They need to know their place in the family and know what is appropriate behavior and what isn't. A couple basic obedience classes and some common sense is typically all that is required. Dogs more than anything just want to be part of the family, aka their "pack". That is what is so special about the human-dog relationship. They have been selectively bred over the millenia to be companions, to fold into the family fabric. It is a really unique arrangement that no other species shares.

 
Old 09-09-2011, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,728,311 times
Reputation: 14583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cav Scout wife View Post
And you are completely missing the point. A baby squeals and sounds like FOOD. Deep down canines still have pack instincts and mentalities. Just as ALL animals do. (including and especially humans)

This attack probably wasn't motivated by agression, as much as it was instinct for food. Face it, infants are small, helpless, defenseless, and sound like other prey foods. That = easy meal.

Before you go too far down the "peta path" with the we don't "need dogs" thing; there are MANY people who have dogs to survive. Much more so that cats, BTW. Therapy dogs, service dogs, SNR, K-9, ......ALL are needed, and fulfill a purpose that another human might not be able to do.

Yes, pets like goldfish. (That's about the only non-dangerous pet I can think of, unless of course the kiddo swallows the fish whole and chokes....) But not all kids want a fish; not to mention fish can't guard the house, defend you against intruders, keep you warm in bed at night, and play fetch.
This is good reason to NOT have a dog as a pet!!!!! WHY would any parent have a pet to whom their sqealing baby sounds like food????? That is the height of stupidity!!!! You are NOT talking about anything that should ever be a family pet!!!!
 
Old 09-09-2011, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,728,311 times
Reputation: 14583
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzarama View Post
You must have encountered some mean, self-centered dog owners in your life. I think most dog owners are Lorded Over by their dogs. I do know people who didn't think through the effect on their lives of having a dog and regretted the decision. I don't know anyone who got one to have something to dominate.
I'm asweing the posts here. I've been told that the owner has to be the pack leader and train the dogs. That sounds like lording over the dogs. Having something beneath you. I don't want to be the lead dog and I have no desire to keep an animal that must be trained to live around humans. I don't see the point if it's not a work animal.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 04:37 PM
 
9,525 posts, read 4,866,768 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I'm asweing the posts here. I've been told that the owner has to be the pack leader and train the dogs. That sounds like lording over the dogs. Having something beneath you. I don't want to be the lead dog and I have no desire to keep an animal that must be trained to live around humans. I don't see the point if it's not a work animal.
You not wanting a dog is fine, many people don't. I see the point in not having a dog. Many others find dogs comforting, fun, expressive, loving, a joy.

The training is at worst an inconvenience, but it's also rewarding and enjoyable. I don't consider training as Lording Over. I can tell you the 'training' goes both ways.

I'd never suggest to someone who doesn't want a dog to get one.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,728,311 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzarama View Post
You not wanting a dog is fine, many people don't. I see the point in not having a dog. Many others find dogs comforting, fun, expressive, loving, a joy.

The training is at worst an inconvenience, but it's also rewarding and enjoyable. I don't consider training as Lording Over. I can tell you the 'training' goes both ways.

I'd never suggest to someone who doesn't want a dog to get one.
Others here have attributed attacks like this to failure on the part of the owner to be the pack leader and train the dogs properly. I think any parent who has an animal around a child who might kill the child without proper training should have their kids taken away and be sterilized.

This thread has really turned me against dogs as pets. No wonder they kill. They're not natural pets. They're pack animals who have to be trained against their natures to live with humans. Better to leave them in the pack. Or better yet, just shoot the pack before they mistake a squealing child for dinner. I can see having work dogs but I'm thinking they should live in the barn, on a very short chain....
 
Old 09-09-2011, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,408 posts, read 28,883,580 times
Reputation: 7268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Others here have attributed attacks like this to failure on the part of the owner to be the pack leader and train the dogs properly. I think any parent who has an animal around a child who might kill the child without proper training should have their kids taken away and be sterilized.

This thread has really turned me against dogs as pets. No wonder they kill. They're not natural pets. They're pack animals who have to be trained against their natures to live with humans. Better to leave them in the pack. Or better yet, just shoot the pack before they mistake a squealing child for dinner. I can see having work dogs but I'm thinking they should live in the barn, on a very short chain....
There is a lot more to dogs than you are assuming just because they need to be trained and socialized to make good pets:

Canine Heros

Punish the Deed, not the Breed!

25 Heroic Dogs and How They Saved People

Plus these heroic deeds include saving cats:

Quote:
Cats and dogs are always made out to be enemies, but this not always so! Enter Napoleon, the English Bulldog who defied the poor swimming skills of his breed to swim deep out into a lake and rescue a burlap sack containing 6 abandoned kittens! While two of the kittens didn't make it, the other four were nursed back to health, leading to a hero's welcome for Napoleon back at the local adoption center.
Quote:
Is Ginny a traitor to canine's everywhere, or an undisputed hero? The 300 cats who attended her memorial service would probably say the latter, paying homage to a dog who endangered herself on multiple occasions to save dying or stranded cats from peril. On one particularly remarkable occasion, Ginny threw herself against a vertical pipe at a construction site so that it would topple and the stranded cats inside could escape. Another time, Ginny suffered severe cuts on her paws to find an injured cat inside a box of broken glass.
True stories of heroic dogs - USATODAY.com

There is a good reason they have been called "man's best friend" for ages.

It's rather ironic that your status is "enjoying the dog days ..."

Maybe a professional can help you understand:

http://www.cesarsway.com/channel/dog-behavior

Last edited by I_Love_LI_but; 09-09-2011 at 05:11 PM..
 
Old 09-09-2011, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 45,015,503 times
Reputation: 20425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Others here have attributed attacks like this to failure on the part of the owner to be the pack leader and train the dogs properly. I think any parent who has an animal around a child who might kill the child without proper training should have their kids taken away and be sterilized.
So, you think anyone with a dog & children in their household should be sterilized - despite the fact that probably 99.99% of pet dogs would never & have never killed a human/baby? Mmmmkay, that makes a lot of sense.

Quote:
This thread has really turned me against dogs as pets. No wonder they kill. They're not natural pets. They're pack animals who have to be trained against their natures to live with humans. Better to leave them in the pack. Or better yet, just shoot the pack before they mistake a squealing child for dinner. I can see having work dogs but I'm thinking they should live in the barn, on a very short chain....
You don't want a dog, fine... plenty of folks aren't dog people, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But to believe they kill regularly, or need to be "lorded over" to live with safely, is just sheer ignorance. We're talking about man's best friend here, an animal that has peacefully co-existed with humans for THOUSANDS of years!

Training is important but usually quite easy, and even an untrained dog is pretty unlikely to KILL anyone. Untrained Pit Bull or Cane Corso? Not a good idea. But for the most part, dogs are primarily meant to be our companions, and are about as likely to kill their family as a house cat. Heck, my cat tears me up on a regular basis, whereas my dog has never even nipped at me. Weird.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 45,015,503 times
Reputation: 20425
Btw, I did speak earlier of not having babies & dogs in the same household, unless you're prepared to control the situation... I hope you didn't take that to mean "you must LORD over them, or they WILL kill a baby!" I only meant that leaving them unattended together is a bad idea, which I'd say about leaving any un-caged animal alone with a baby. The same is often said about cats (due to suffocating & scratching hazards), but you seem to think cats are wonderful family pets.

I know plenty of families with dogs, and they don't have to be constantly worried about an attack - they simply have to know who's where at all times, which I assume even a pet-free household would do with their children. I mean, what is a 9-day old baby doing alone, anyway? They should only be alone while sleeping, and even then I'd hope most parents have a baby monitor within hearing.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Texas
43,545 posts, read 52,637,306 times
Reputation: 70787
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaWoman View Post
That is what we did with our first one ... pulled cradle up next to our bed and I slept with my arm over in the cradle. We didn't want her to escape or anything. Then the next one comes along and parents are pros by that time.

We have always had dogs but never a dog around our babies. When our first grandchild was born we had a 90 lb Boxer that was a house dog ... when grandbaby was here our Boxer was outside.
I am not enough of a meanie to throw my dogs outside (dogs aren't meant to be outside by themselves), but I agree there are plenty of ways to have a baby separated/segregated from the dogs without having to toss the dog out.

Certainly other siblings are more likely a danger to babies than dogs are. I know most of my friends had siblings who hit them or pushed them while they were trying to walk, etc.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Texas
43,545 posts, read 52,637,306 times
Reputation: 70787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
That's why I don't want a dog. To me a pet isn't worth having if it has to be dominated and trained. I'd rather leave an animal that needs that kind of "training" in the wild. That's where they belong.

I understand working dogs like leader dogs or farm dogs. It's worth training them because of the human benefit. The only benefit I can see to the average dog owner is they get something they can Lord over and I don't see the attraction there. I guess I just don't need something I have to dominate.

I wouldn't have a wild cat for the same reasons. Some animals are just not pet material. They're too wild to be pets.
Lol. You need to meet my dogs. They have only ever shown 'aggression' in the most appropriate of circumstances (barking/growling while strangers approach the house). Otherwise, while being abused even (I like to pick them up - 60 pounds - and walk around with them), they look put upon, resigned, tolerant, and there may be an eye roll or two in there.
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