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Old 09-24-2011, 04:17 PM
 
1,677 posts, read 2,063,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Why don't you take him and let him live with your children?

This boy needs to be locked away before another child dies. He is what he is no matter how he got that way. I don't buy that his circumstances made him do it because too many come from worse situations and do not kill. He made a choice to kill. That indicates the presence of evil.

I believe some are just born evil and it makes, logical, sense that they would be more likely to be born into bad situations because of genetics. Acorns, after all, do not fall far from the tree. If there's something wrong with the parents, it's more likely there's something wrong with the child. Like it or not, much of who we are is genetically influenced. While that is not the fault of the person who has an issue, society needs to be protected from them. To quote Mr. Spock..."The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.".
Who the heck said anything about letting him live with me and my children? Locked away, yes. The question is locked away in prison, or locked away where he can get some help. You make a lot of definitive statements about a situation that very few facts are known. You don't know the first thing about his genetics, and even if both his parents were serial killers, that doesn't mean he will be too. Funny I haven't seen the children of John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy in the news. Children of rapists don't grow up to rape themselves. It's what you are raised around and taught. Behavior is a choice, not genes, and if a child is raised in certain conditions and that's all they know, they come to believe those are their only choices. And don't forget we are talking about a CHILD here. Given different circumstances and different choices, no matter who and what his parents were, he may have turned out to be a wonderful human being. According to your half cocked theory, you may as well lock up the surviving siblings as well for what they MIGHT do. It's the pampered, spoiled kids who still demonstrate antisocial behaviors that you should be worried about.

There IS a such thing as mitigating circumstances. Adult defendants use them all the time. Abuse is usually the biggest one. He was born to a 12 year old mother in foster care, who went on to have 3 more children and an abusive partner. He was physically abused. His stepfather killed himself right in front of him. Chances are, nobody ever helped him through any of these situations. His mother, who sat around for 2 hours while her baby died, allowed a man to beat her child, and was only a child herself when she became a mother, clearly isn't capable of giving any of these children what they need. There's other factors that could be at play here rather that just an evil child with bad genes. I sure hope that his jury doesn't contain people like you who think his life is worth nothing. If an adult criminal has a chance a rehabilitation, a 12 year old certainly does too.

Last edited by AnnaNomus; 09-24-2011 at 04:23 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 09-24-2011, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,794,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus View Post
Who the heck said anything about letting him live with me and my children? Locked away, yes. The question is locked away in prison, or locked away where he can get some help. You make a lot of definitive statements about a situation that very few facts are known. You don't know the first thing about his genetics, and even if both his parents were serial killers, that doesn't mean he will be too. Funny I haven't seen the children of John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy in the news. Children of rapists don't grow up to rape themselves. It's what you are raised around and taught. Behavior is a choice, not genes, and if a child is raised in certain conditions and that's all they know, they come to believe those are their only choices. And don't forget we are talking about a CHILD here. Given different circumstances and different choices, no matter who and what his parents were, he may have turned out to be a wonderful human being. According to your half cocked theory, you may as well lock up the surviving siblings as well for what they MIGHT do. It's the pampered, spoiled kids who still demonstrate antisocial behaviors that you should be worried about.

There IS a such thing as mitigating circumstances. Adult defendants use them all the time. Abuse is usually the biggest one. He was born to a 12 year old mother in foster care, who went on to have 3 more children and an abusive partner. He was physically abused. His stepfather killed himself right in front of him. Chances are, nobody ever helped him through any of these situations. His mother, who sat around for 2 hours while her baby died, allowed a man to beat her child, and was only a child herself when she became a mother, clearly isn't capable of giving any of these children what they need. There's other factors that could be at play here rather that just an evil child with bad genes. I sure hope that his jury doesn't contain people like you who think his life is worth nothing. If an adult criminal has a chance a rehabilitation, a 12 year old certainly does too.
It really doesn't matter. He just needs to be locked away from anyone he could harm. He is not someone we'd ever want out in society again.

And no, I don't buy mitigating circumstances. For every person who was in a certain circumstance and chose to murder as a response, I can find 50 who didn't choose to kill. Circumstances are circumstances but they don't make them kill. They choose to kill because of who they ARE. Just look around. How many people have come out of horrible circumstances and gone on to do good with their lives in response? If mitigating circumstances are to blame for murders, why didn't they murder in the same circumstances?
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:27 PM
 
1,677 posts, read 2,063,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
It really doesn't matter. He just needs to be locked away from anyone he could harm. He is not someone we'd ever want out in society again.

And no, I don't buy mitigating circumstances. For every person who was in a certain circumstance and chose to murder as a response, I can find 50 who didn't choose to kill. Circumstances are circumstances but they don't make them kill. They choose to kill because of who they ARE. Just look around. How many people have come out of horrible circumstances and gone on to do good with their lives in response? If mitigating circumstances are to blame for murders, why didn't they murder in the same circumstances?
And how many people commit crimes, serve their time, and manage to stay out of trouble after that? How do we know that, at age 12, this child is a lost cause and should never have a 2nd chance?

You may not buy mitigating factors, but they do exist and are considered in a court of law. So are aggravating factors, such as previous criminal records, level of violence, age of victim, etc. Based on the few snippets of information I got from that article, looks like Cristian Fernandez has more mitigating than aggravating factors. I only hope justice is served for not only the dead child, but all the children involved in this situation including Cristian.
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Old 09-25-2011, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,794,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus View Post
And how many people commit crimes, serve their time, and manage to stay out of trouble after that? How do we know that, at age 12, this child is a lost cause and should never have a 2nd chance?

You may not buy mitigating factors, but they do exist and are considered in a court of law. So are aggravating factors, such as previous criminal records, level of violence, age of victim, etc. Based on the few snippets of information I got from that article, looks like Cristian Fernandez has more mitigating than aggravating factors. I only hope justice is served for not only the dead child, but all the children involved in this situation including Cristian.
What crimes did they commit? First degree murder??? We don't, usually, let people who commit premeditated murder back out into society. Yes, people who commit lesser crimes often rehabilitate but this is murder not penny larceny.

No I don't buy mitigating circumstances. There are just too many examples of people who came from wrose backgrounds and chose to do good not evil. I know it's a personal choice.

The courts will do what the courts will do. I'm fully aware we have a permissive court system that slaps people on the wrist when they should throw the book at them. Just because something is done that way doesn't make it right.
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Old 09-25-2011, 08:08 AM
 
28,206 posts, read 20,794,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Given he's charged with first degree murder (premeditated), I'm going with too evil to ever let back out in society. I don't believe the environment made him do it. There are too many people who come for awful environments who do not kill toddlers.
I'm sorry but how could his environment and history NOT have contributed to these actions????

That is just ridiculous. People don't live in a vacuum. They ARE products of their environment. Being a 12 year old raised by another child in a craptastic environment wouldn't lend itself to teaching morals and such.
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Old 09-25-2011, 08:10 AM
 
28,206 posts, read 20,794,913 times
Reputation: 16599
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Why don't you take him and let him live with your children?

This boy needs to be locked away before another child dies. He is what he is no matter how he got that way. I don't buy that his circumstances made him do it because too many come from worse situations and do not kill. He made a choice to kill. That indicates the presence of evil.

I believe some are just born evil and it makes, logical, sense that they would be more likely to be born into bad situations because of genetics. Acorns, after all, do not fall far from the tree. If there's something wrong with the parents, it's more likely there's something wrong with the child. Like it or not, much of who we are is genetically influenced. While that is not the fault of the person who has an issue, society needs to be protected from them. To quote Mr. Spock..."The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.".
Is this in some sort of handbook? I hear this "argument" all the time. Can you please elaborate on why you made this statement and how it applies to our stance?
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Old 09-25-2011, 08:13 AM
 
28,206 posts, read 20,794,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
What crimes did they commit? First degree murder??? We don't, usually, let people who commit premeditated murder back out into society. Yes, people who commit lesser crimes often rehabilitate but this is murder not penny larceny.

No I don't buy mitigating circumstances. There are just too many examples of people who came from wrose backgrounds and chose to do good not evil. I know it's a personal choice.

The courts will do what the courts will do. I'm fully aware we have a permissive court system that slaps people on the wrist when they should throw the book at them. Just because something is done that way doesn't make it right.
I can name hundreds of murderers who were released and went on to live productive lives.


Furthermore, the argument that some people don't commit crimes because of bad childhoods so no one else would either is silly. People are different and react differently to situations.
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Old 09-25-2011, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,794,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnieA View Post
So, no one can ever be rehabilitated ? One wrong move and your done ?
Depends on the crime. Some crimes indicate the presence of an evil that you would not ever want out in society. Other crimes don't.
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Old 09-25-2011, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,794,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
I can name hundreds of murderers who were released and went on to live productive lives.


Furthermore, the argument that some people don't commit crimes because of bad childhoods so no one else would either is silly. People are different and react differently to situations.
That's right and when you know that someone reacts to bad situations by murdering, you protect society from them. You already know they will choose to kill. The ones you want in society are the ones who don't choose to kill.
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Old 09-25-2011, 08:46 AM
 
28,206 posts, read 20,794,913 times
Reputation: 16599
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
That's right and when you know that someone reacts to bad situations by murdering, you protect society from them. You already know they will choose to kill. The ones you want in society are the ones who don't choose to kill.
The child would still be in protective custody if he were in a psychiatric facility. I was addressing the idea that people's environments and upbringing do not color a person's world view, morals and reactions to situations.

There is no possible way that environment does not factor in people's decision making skills. It should be considered in criminal cases.
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