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Old 12-11-2011, 05:38 AM
 
Location: In a house
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space View Post



And one of those harkened on most of us was 'Thou shall not kill'...which activated the conscious...(if one buys into that theory)....
Its more correctly translated as "Thou shalt not murder" Theres nothing about killing in defense or as a punishment. Matter of fact we are told to kill for some offenses which today seem trivial. Adultry, rape & homosexuality are a few, murder of course and others. Biggest issue we face today is needing courts. If, as back then, you found someone raping your child YOU killed them. There is no doubt involved & when caught in the act it should be entrely forgivable & unprosecutable if you killed someone hurting your family or if you were trying to stop a murder or any crime of violence. After all, unlike bank robbery, in these cases WE, are the direct victims, not the state or society at large, these are crimes against persons. Be a hell of a deterrent too if violent criminals stopped making it to court & instead expired at their victims feet.
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Knocker View Post
Its more correctly translated as "Thou shalt not murder" Theres nothing about killing in defense or as a punishment. Matter of fact we are told to kill for some offenses which today seem trivial. Adultry, rape & homosexuality are a few, murder of course and others. Biggest issue we face today is needing courts. If, as back then, you found someone raping your child YOU killed them. There is no doubt involved & when caught in the act it should be entrely forgivable & unprosecutable if you killed someone hurting your family or if you were trying to stop a murder or any crime of violence. After all, unlike bank robbery, in these cases WE, are the direct victims, not the state or society at large, these are crimes against persons. Be a hell of a deterrent too if violent criminals stopped making it to court & instead expired at their victims feet.
In the New Testament followers are told not to extract an eye for an eye, but if someone strikes you, to turn the other cheek.

I am not saying not to punish offenders, but also to counsel them to try to help those who can be helped. Generally violence begats violence. With the weapons of the world today, would not it be wiser to talk rather than act? Are we not civilized?
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Old 06-15-2012, 12:30 AM
 
Location: White House, TN
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Frankly, those that can stomach the job of executioner and suffer no guilt make me sick. There are just too many people being exonerated - and plus, the suspects' families don't want to have to be forced to lose a relative.

On the other hand life in prison without parole is a GREAT thing for murderers (:
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
What is it about killing another human that actually changes lives? I would think that capital punishment would be something a person just does, and then it's over, forgotten - that is, when you are CERTAIN that the person is guilty. (Not always the case, in Indiana one third were freed by DNA testing).

I saw a documentary the other day. A warden was interviewed. He had had to have executed several people. He said it literally haunted him. He saw these people around his bed as he slept - often. He said it is a point not often discussed, but from his discussions with others involved in these legal executions of criminals, the same thing happened.

In the same production a killer was interviewed in prison. He had, while a teen, palled around with a serial killer. He helped with some of the murders to impress the guy (the psychologist said this kid probably would not have killed had he not met with the psycho - he was not motivated the same way, but had a 'pack' mentality. Many kids in high school go through such a stage). This fellow said the killings changed him. They 'haunt' him. There is not one aspect of you that is not in some way affected by murder.

Then, the new information out is that the biggest predictor of PTSD is not the witnessing of some horrific thing, but that you killed another human being:
Study: PTSD rates higher for troops who kill

This is something weird to throw in, but a book I read about the Mexican drug gangs said many belong to non traditional religions and believe that in taking a human life, that soul is somehow tied to yours, which you can use for increased power.

I do not believe in traditional religions, but from these tales I would think that there may be something, perhaps of a spiritual nature, but something that changes a person - that taking a human life has a different effect than the killing or another animal.

I doubt if any of us here have had the experience. I know many will attribute the reaction to our being instructed in the rights and wrongs of a civilized society, but I think this cannot be the entire story because the dark spot in the soul seems to occur irrespective of the innocence or guilt of the person who is killed.

I am thinking that capital punishment may be a bad thing, not for murdering the guilty, but for the horror that it creates in the lives of those who do the executing.

Anyway, I thought this might be start a good discussion.

Interesting.

I could not take a life - whether it was murder of an innocent person or executing the guilty. The moment of passing from life to death is a sacred one and I believe it is best left to Nature or God or the Universe (insert your belief system here).

The warden's descriptions of his deceased charges horrify me but makes sense. I don't think the taking of a life could ever leave a person unscathed. I am more of a Nature/Universe believer and think that what we do to others comes back to us 3 fold. Not in the same form, but in the same end result.

Great discussion, goldengrain!
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by CarolinaWoman View Post
Killing anyone is why the recent wars bother me so bad. Some of the young men and women will never get over what they have experienced in Iraq and Afghanistan.

My husband was in the Vietnam war ... he returned home and never talked about it at all. He proceeded to drink himself to death. He finally realized that he was killing himself and has been dry since 1986 one day at a time. He has no problems now discussing Vietnam.

Our best friend is not so fortunate. He was in the infantry and had to kill or be killed. After a few years the nightmares started. He went through pure hell for years until about ten years ago he reached out for help.

Our neighbor was a big time hunter. He was deer hunting and accidentally killed another hunter. The man died in his arms telling him "it's OK buddy,I know you didn't mean to do it." Neighbor got rid of every weapon and crossbow he owned. He spent every day sitting in a rocking chair staring out the bedroom window. He had a breakdown and spent six months in a mental institution. He and wife divorced and he moved out of state.

I could not be an executioner nor witness an execution. But we firmly believe in the right to bear arms and should any pond scum break into our home we do have an arsenal.

I recall the execution in Utah last year (June 2010.) Ronnie Lee Gardner chose the firing squad over lethal injection. Utah is the only state left that offers the firing squad. Five anonymous police officers used Winchester rifles. One rifle had a non-lethal wax bullet in it so they would not know who fired the fatal shot. After the execution the prison had commemorative coins made up for the prison staff that participated in the execution.

I feel such revulsion at the thought of young men and women killing others at the behest of governments. These people are the ones paying the ultimate price, whether they live or die. Imagining the thousands of men and women who were forever affected by war (in any war in history) angers me.
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:25 AM
 
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Humans are programmed and raised to believe "thou shalt not kill" (or whatever variation you want to use) so some of the guilt and conflict associated with that deeply ingrained thought is liable to be an issue. However, some of this is just pschycobabble, and, I dare say, of the level of drama queen or king type issues. The warden neither sentenced the person nor personally executed the person (flipping the switch, etc), he simply does the housekeeping duties of managing the process. He shouldn't be living with ghosts anymore than the society that sentenced these people to death (you and I).

For our warriors, men in arms in a time of war, some of this is just touchy-feely rubbish. Not to say that the societal rules that discourage killing don't exist - studies have shown that some soliders, actually a great percentage, consously or subconsiouly, will not shoot at enemies...instead firing over their heads or into the ground. This is overcome by training, or the use of less personal methods of killing - indirect fire, etc. Very few of our veterans returing from Iraq or Afighanistan have seen direct fire combat. Then we have these reactions from soldiers such as snipers. A reporter looking for a "touchy feely" sound bite for a news report about "the horrors of war" asked a sniper what he felt when he pulled the trigger on a human being. His simple all inclusive response: "rifle recoil". That's it.
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Old 06-17-2012, 03:52 PM
 
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But there are many, many, many other things tath are deeply ingrained in us since birth that do not cause the same amount of conflict, guilt and tragedy as the taking of other lives.

What, exactly, is "touchy-feely" rubbish? As the niece of a former Marine who won the Purple Heart during Vietnam and was RACKED with guilt, depression, self-loathing, PTSD, I'd really like to know.
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Old 06-18-2012, 07:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
But there are many, many, many other things tath are deeply ingrained in us since birth that do not cause the same amount of conflict, guilt and tragedy as the taking of other lives.

What, exactly, is "touchy-feely" rubbish? As the niece of a former Marine who won the Purple Heart during Vietnam and was RACKED with guilt, depression, self-loathing, PTSD, I'd really like to know.
PTSD certainly does exist, but not all warriors that experience combat experience PTSD, certainly not to the degree experienced by your uncle, and the vast majority return to lead normal lives.

However, and this is a fact that never gets often repeated, most military men that serve in combat zones during time of war never ever hear or fire a shot in anger, ever. The ratio of support troops to combat troops is something like 10 to 1, which means for every 10 soldiers that went to vietnam or Iraq, only 1 served in combat, the rest were cooks, drivers, maintanance men, warehouse workers, IT guys, etc. That is a fact, think about that. Now, I don't have to tell you of the number of people returning from a war zone that want to exagerrate there war times experiences and perhaps blame it for other human weaknesses when they return, when all they saw of war was sitting behind a PC in an airconditioned office in the green zone. That's just human nature. Not to say they still need don't need to be commended. They were away from home still doing a difficulat job. That's also not to say, for the other 10%, that they did not experience traumatic events.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Dublin, CA
3,813 posts, read 3,655,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
Interesting.

I could not take a life - whether it was murder of an innocent person or executing the guilty. The moment of passing from life to death is a sacred one and I believe it is best left to Nature or God or the Universe (insert your belief system here).

The warden's descriptions of his deceased charges horrify me but makes sense. I don't think the taking of a life could ever leave a person unscathed. I am more of a Nature/Universe believer and think that what we do to others comes back to us 3 fold. Not in the same form, but in the same end result.

Great discussion, goldengrain!
You could not take a life? Really? I bet I could get you too. IF you have children, and I told you:

See that bum over there? The guy you don't know and will never know? Kill him, or I shall slowly kill your children. And I show you I can do what I say, you wouldn't kill him? I bet you would.

ANYONE can be pushed to kill someone. Killing someone is easy; living with it after is the hard part. Unless you are psychopath.
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Old 06-18-2012, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Old Town Alexandria
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OP, interesting thread.

My uncle was in Vietnam and had PTSD, in theory everyone can say, yes I could kill, but I think in actual practice would be another story. Any person with a conscience would have to live with that on their mind, day and night.

A sociopath would not be affected, of course , as they are born without a conscience. They can kill even as teenagers and think nothing of it.

Anyone wo is spiritual or even believes in karma, I tink it would
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