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Old 12-13-2011, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,632,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
Nudity outside the bounds of normal behavior can have the same effects as sexual contact on children psychologically.
The bounds of normal behavior are not universal. They are not the same in a football locker room as at a church social.

Locker rooms have showers for a specific legitimate, functional reason. A coach and team members showering together is "normal behavior" or at least it was when I was in school. Whether Sandusky did more than that, I don't claim to know.
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Old 12-14-2011, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Chambersburg PA
1,739 posts, read 1,764,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
True...and look at how the media has even abandoned any pretense of objectivity, already referring to the accusers as "victims".
Amen! That should be illegal in EVERY potential rape and abuse case. It is blatantly biased. The term "accuser" is appropriate and accurate and should be used.
The term 'victim' should only be used after a plea or finding of guilt
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Chambersburg PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
It often takes victims a long time to muster up the courage to come out with the truth. Also, victims are more likely to come out about the truth once they find out they weren't the only one. You'd be amazed how many friends and families will outright deny what someone tells them about having been sexually abused, so it's not uncommon at all for victims to become afraid of speaking the truth for fear of being falsely accused of lying, and even in some cases, being ostracized by friends and family for causing tension within a community.
Yes, and conversely, the laws as they stand, make it easy for people to falsely accuse a person years after an alleged event supposedly happened. In PA all it takes is an accusation of a person who is 13 or under or who claims they were.

How do you prove a negative?
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Old 12-14-2011, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Tennessee/Michigan
28,236 posts, read 47,687,941 times
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News, Sandusky lawyer, in comments about witness credibility, inadvertently touts gay sex phone line.

A lawyer for a former Penn State assistant football coach accused of molesting boys said Tuesday he didn't mean to refer to a gay sex phone line when he said anyone who believes university officials thought his client raped a 10-year-old boy and did little about it should call 1-800-REALITY.

Sandusky lawyer, in comments about witness credibility, inadvertently touts gay sex phone line - 12/13/2011 9:53:50 PM | Newser
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Old 12-14-2011, 07:28 PM
 
28,206 posts, read 20,803,393 times
Reputation: 16599
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
The bounds of normal behavior are not universal. They are not the same in a football locker room as at a church social.

Locker rooms have showers for a specific legitimate, functional reason. A coach and team members showering together is "normal behavior" or at least it was when I was in school. Whether Sandusky did more than that, I don't claim to know.
Really?
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:15 AM
 
9,551 posts, read 4,890,185 times
Reputation: 3890
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
The bounds of normal behavior are not universal. They are not the same in a football locker room as at a church social.

Locker rooms have showers for a specific legitimate, functional reason. A coach and team members showering together is "normal behavior" or at least it was when I was in school. Whether Sandusky did more than that, I don't claim to know.
Are your coaches in prison now ? Besides...

This isn't about Sandusky showering at the same time as an entire team. Him and young boy[s], just them. They weren't even part of a team. Something majorly wrong if the no-no bell doesn't ring.
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:48 AM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,656,477 times
Reputation: 12537
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
The bounds of normal behavior are not universal. They are not the same in a football locker room as at a church social.

Locker rooms have showers for a specific legitimate, functional reason. A coach and team members showering together is "normal behavior" or at least it was when I was in school. Whether Sandusky did more than that, I don't claim to know.
You're absolutely right. It does depend on the context and the culture as well. Another important factor is the intent. Almost any action can be done erotically or abusively, in other words, as a way to invade someone's boundaries, whether sexual or not. Some cultural norms can be interpreted as inappropriate or sexual when they are not viewed as such within the culture they are practiced.

For example, my mom is European and grew up with nudity being a normal part of every day life. My dad picked up on it from having been with her for so long, and both our parents taught my sister and me that nudity is okay. Walking around naked in our house was and is completely normal. It had no sexual connotations whatsoever. I did not suffer any effects of sexual abuse from that.

On the flip side, I have a friend who was made to walk around naked in her house as a form of punishment. She was the only one in the house that was made to walk around naked. Everyone else was incredibly modest about their dress and showing skin was seen as being a sl*t/wh*re. The connotation around nudity in her household was one of shame and "sinfulness". They would make fun of her body and talk about her body like it was an object. My friend did suffer effects of sexual abuse from this.

So you're right, what constitutes sexual abuse and what doesn't is highly dependent on a lot of factors. But there have been some reports about what Sandusky did that I think are undeniably sexual abuse, such as:

Quote:
The men came forward in the wake of the earlier allegations against Sandusky, including 40 counts of child molestation, for which he was charged on Nov. 5.
The fact there were 40 counts tells me something. It's easy for one or two or even a handful of people to band together and make stories up, but 40 people?

Secondly:

Quote:
The man now identified as Victim 10 also claimed that Sandusky molested him in a Penn State campus swimming pool and exposed himself and asked for oral sex during a car ride.
Most cultures would agree that oral sex isn't within the bounds of non-sexual nudity. One victim describes Sandusky inserting his penis into the victim's mouth and then ejaculating. And of course, a janitor saw Sandusky performing oral sex on a boy and Sandusky's graduate assistant also saw him anally raping a 10-year-old, something I think most cultures would also consider to be "out of the bounds of normal locker room behavior".

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/11/...resentment.pdf

There are a lot of "gray area" cases, but I don't think this is one of them.
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:06 AM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,656,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faeryedark View Post
Yes, and conversely, the laws as they stand, make it easy for people to falsely accuse a person years after an alleged event supposedly happened. In PA all it takes is an accusation of a person who is 13 or under or who claims they were.

How do you prove a negative?
I know. I understand it's incredibly hard to prove or disprove sexual abuse. The stakes are so high that no one wants to charge an innocent person or let a guilty person off the hook. That's what makes this issue so difficult.

Given the number of victims that reported Sandusky's behavior, and the fact many of them reported the same kinds of unusual acts, leads me to believe that this is for real. After all, what the victims reported are not generic or easily made up. Many of them reported the same details, such as "touching on the left thigh" and "back-cracking" and "stomach blowing" and so on. None of those are typical sex acts, but they were all reported more than once by all of Sandusky's victims. Two other people witnesses sexual abuse even though they weren't themselves victims (the janitor and the graduate assistant). To me, it just doesn't seem like all those accounts could be made up with that much detail and consistency.

The laws make it easy for people to accuse someone of sexual abuse, but communities are incredibly resistant to following through with allegations. It's amazing how many schools and churches and other kinds of communities try to cover up sexual abuse rather than investigating it and expelling those members from their community. Instead, they try to preserve an image that isn't even real and let those members continue to be a part of the community. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

I have read your posts before and if I remember correctly, your boyfriend was falsely accused of sexually abusing someone. From what I remember of your story, it seemed pretty obvious it was trumped up, because of the way your boyfriend didn't have a particular interest in children. But when you read the Sandusky accounts, you find that he is around children in many contexts, and went to great lengths to make children into his "buddies" by trying to buy their affection. The way he rationalizes his behavior is classic of pedophiles too. It just all fits right into the classic patterns that psychologists observe among pedophiles. I think anyone who has experience with sexual abuse cases can instantly tell the difference between trumped up evidence and real evidence. Several sexual abuse experts have said that Sandusky's responses in his interviews and the accounts reported by his victims pretty much "fit the bill".

I understand where you are coming from, but I am truly convinced in this case that Sandusky is guilty of raping and molesting children.
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Old 12-15-2011, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Chambersburg PA
1,739 posts, read 1,764,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
I know. I understand it's incredibly hard to prove or disprove sexual abuse. The stakes are so high that no one wants to charge an innocent person or let a guilty person off the hook. That's what makes this issue so difficult.

Given the number of victims that reported Sandusky's behavior, and the fact many of them reported the same kinds of unusual acts, leads me to believe that this is for real. After all, what the victims reported are not generic or easily made up. Many of them reported the same details, such as "touching on the left thigh" and "back-cracking" and "stomach blowing" and so on. None of those are typical sex acts, but they were all reported more than once by all of Sandusky's victims. Two other people witnesses sexual abuse even though they weren't themselves victims (the janitor and the graduate assistant). To me, it just doesn't seem like all those accounts could be made up with that much detail and consistency.

The laws make it easy for people to accuse someone of sexual abuse, but communities are incredibly resistant to following through with allegations. It's amazing how many schools and churches and other kinds of communities try to cover up sexual abuse rather than investigating it and expelling those members from their community. Instead, they try to preserve an image that isn't even real and let those members continue to be a part of the community. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

I have read your posts before and if I remember correctly, your boyfriend was falsely accused of sexually abusing someone. From what I remember of your story, it seemed pretty obvious it was trumped up, because of the way your boyfriend didn't have a particular interest in children. But when you read the Sandusky accounts, you find that he is around children in many contexts, and went to great lengths to make children into his "buddies" by trying to buy their affection. The way he rationalizes his behavior is classic of pedophiles too. It just all fits right into the classic patterns that psychologists observe among pedophiles. I think anyone who has experience with sexual abuse cases can instantly tell the difference between trumped up evidence and real evidence. Several sexual abuse experts have said that Sandusky's responses in his interviews and the accounts reported by his victims pretty much "fit the bill".

I understand where you are coming from, but I am truly convinced in this case that Sandusky is guilty of raping and molesting children.
Oh, I agree, 100% if you were to ask me, do I think he's guilty not only by all the allegations that seem to mesh, but also his own weird statements... I say YES!!
However, by our laws that are in place to protect ANYONE who is accused. He is innocent until proven guilty
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:21 PM
 
9,917 posts, read 9,323,026 times
Reputation: 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
The bounds of normal behavior are not universal. They are not the same in a football locker room as at a church social.

Locker rooms have showers for a specific legitimate, functional reason. A coach and team members showering together is "normal behavior" or at least it was when I was in school. Whether Sandusky did more than that, I don't claim to know.
WOW ... where did you go to school?

I played basketball, fast pitch softball and volleyball in school and never ever showered with a coach not even in a different shower stall.

My son played football, basketball and soccer and no coach was showering in the locker room either.

I would find that totally unacceptable to find a coach showering with his team.
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