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Old 05-23-2013, 09:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detshen View Post
False confessions are common, especially among young people, in a sample of people cleared by DNA they found 40 out of 200 cases had included false confessions, that's not a minor anomaly, that's a huge amount, and means false confessions are a real issue that must be looked at in any civilized judicial system.
But I wonder how many of those false confesions were made to cover themselves or someone else?

If you have nothing to hide why would you make a false confesion? Lying is very difficult. I don't buy the "she was hungry" or tired theory unless the italians are using denailing in their interrogations.

I find that confesion extremely odd. Of course I don't believe all those stupid prosecution theories (satanism, orgy gone bad) but I think Amanda and the italian are hiding something. What it is, only they know. And if the incompetent italians can't find any evidence to prosecute them they should set them free.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:33 AM
 
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Here is some information about coerced false confessions.

False confession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Marty Tankleff - Home
False and Coerced Confessions, Center on Wrongful Convictions: Bluhm Legal Clinic, Northwestern Law School
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sugah Ray View Post
But I wonder how many of those false confesions were made to cover themselves or someone else?

If you have nothing to hide why would you make a false confesion? Lying is very difficult. I don't buy the "she was hungry" or tired theory unless the italians are using denailing in their interrogations.

I find that confesion extremely odd. Of course I don't believe all those stupid prosecution theories (satanism, orgy gone bad) but I think Amanda and the italian are hiding something. What it is, only they know. And if the incompetent italians can't find any evidence to prosecute them they should set them free.
False confessions happen all the time, the phenomena is well known to psychologists, and has nothing to do with covering for someone else. Under intense police pressure, hours of interrogation with a person of authority telling you what you supposedly did, people become confused, and they start to think if they just say what the police want to hear they can go home, it has been shown that people can actually be put into a sort of hypnotic state where they start to believe the police, this is more common with young people, it isn't until the experience is over that they realize what has happened.

It's not lying, the police feed the information to the person until they can get the suspect to agree with them, if you listen to false confession you will hear the police create the entire story, and feed every word to the suspect, often suspects even repeat things the police tell them happened that later turn out to be wrong, so it becomes very clear later that the confession was false. If someone has never been in that position they don't know what they would do. She was interrogated for over 24 hours with a group of officers speaking a language she did not understand. The police created the story about Patrick, and tried to convince her she was there, and just couldn't remember clearly, they just kept pushing and pushing their version of what happened for hours and hours without a break, that's how false confessions happen. It's easy for someone to say "I would never confess to something I didn't do," but in reality we don't know that unless we have been through that exact experience.

Last edited by detshen; 05-23-2013 at 10:47 AM..
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:52 AM
 
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Good info, we need to reform interrogations to prevent false confessions, it's so easy for the police to believe someone is guilty, and then do absolutely anything to get that confession when what they should be doing is getting the evidence that proves guilt even if it exonerates their original suspect. Police officers and prosecutors are very prone to arrogance and overestimating their ability to determine guilt or innocence, DNA exonerations have shown this to be the case.


[i]Both cases raise a question: Why would anyone confess to such horrific crimes — especially involving their own child or loved one — if they didn't commit them? Seemingly unfathomable, it happens far more often than most people believe, experts say.

"The interrogation itself is stressful enough to get innocent people to confess," said Saul Kassin, a psychology professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. "But add to that a layer of grief and shock and perhaps even some guilt — 'I should have been there'

Trauma, lack of sleep and highly manipulative interrogation techniques are a few factors that can cause the most level-headed people to falsely confess to a crime — even one as heinous as a child's murder, according to experts. Researchers believe that false confessions lead to about 25 percent of wrongful convictions, a statistic underscored by the increasingly sophisticated use of DNA evidence.

Over the past two decades, 254 people have been exonerated by DNA evidence, including 17 who were on death row, according to the Innocence Project, a nonprofit legal clinic based at Yeshiva University in New York.


25%, that is a huge number of people, every civilized justice system must work to correct this.
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Originally Posted by detshen View Post
That was part of her false confession that was fed to her by the police, the police ASKED her if she knew any black men. Two witnesses saw a black man running from the cottage, the real killer Rudy Guede is a black man. The police put the black man into her head and she had spoken to her boss earlier that day so that's where his name came from, she didn't just pick some random black man to blame, the police brought him into her interrogation with their line of questioning. She also recanted as soon as she had a break for rest and food after the many hours of interrogation by a foreign police department, which would be terrifying for anyone let alone a 20 year old who doesn't speak the language. She was convicted of slander, and served 3 years for it (plus another year)that was her only crime, she served her time and has shown plenty of remorse for it.

She worked 2 part time jobs to pay to study abroad, AND got a job while there. Most Americans who have enough money to attend college at all could get a job to save money for the extra expense, which in many cases isn't much more expensive than regular tuition and room and board in a US college. Studying abroad was very important to her, I know many students who feel/felt this way and it is very doable, one does not need wealthy parents, her parents were middle class and financially broke themselves trying to be near her, and fight her legal battles.
I've been poor and I have been what many would call wealthy. I think, yes, there is a class divide where wealth is concerned. When you have some money, are probably upper middle class, you don't t think of yourself as rich (and you are not), but those below you economically sure do.

Most Americans do not 'have' enough to pay for college. Most Americans are struggling to go. Parents get second mortgages on their homes and kids are working their way through - and that is including those big loans that they take out.

Most Americans going to school are getting into debt, just for school, in the hopes of rewards later. They don't have enough to pay for college and certainly going abroad would be a dream for them, something they probably would appreciate, taking studies seriously. It would not be a venue for sex, drugs, and rock n roll.

I don't think Amanda's parents were wealthy, but I do think they were well to do and I don't think Amanda comported herself responsibly nor was she appreciative of her special position.

I know she has a great fan club, mostly from friends and people who probably are in her social class. I can understand them sticking up for her, but I don't see her life so far through those same economic glasses.

Oh, and wasn't there something about cartwheels in the courthouse? 'Normal' reaction?
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
I've been poor and I have been what many would call wealthy. I think, yes, there is a class divide where wealth is concerned. When you have some money, are probably upper middle class, you don't t think of yourself as rich (and you are not), but those below you economically sure do.

Most Americans do not 'have' enough to pay for college. Most Americans are struggling to go. Parents get second mortgages on their homes and kids are working their way through - and that is including those big loans that they take out.

Most Americans going to school are getting into debt, just for school, in the hopes of rewards later. They don't have enough to pay for college and certainly going abroad would be a dream for them, something they probably would appreciate, taking studies seriously. It would not be a venue for sex, drugs, and rock n roll.

I don't think Amanda's parents were wealthy, but I do think they were well to do and I don't think Amanda comported herself responsibly nor was she appreciative of her special position.

I know she has a great fan club, mostly from friends and people who probably are in her social class. I can understand them sticking up for her, but I don't see her life so far through those same economic glasses.

Oh, and wasn't there something about cartwheels in the courthouse? 'Normal' reaction?
I grew up working class, first generation to even attend a college course. I worked multiple jobs all through school, and went abroad for grad school, at the time I would be considered poor by most definitions, as a student with zero parental support. When you care about something bad enough, you can make it happen, nobody gave it to me, and we know she worked in the US and in Italy, so I'm not buying this "entitled rich girl who couldn't possibly appreciate anything" line of reasoning.

I do not view her through upper middle class eyes, nor am I a "fan." I view HER CASE (and the often forgotten Raphael Solicito's case) through educated eyes that see a superstitious, corrupt prosecutor with absurd theories, and no evidence. A college student smoking a joint is not shocking to most people, and that hardly makes her some crazy party girl, there is no evidence that she was not a respectable student, just tabloid rumors that some choose to believe. I demand real evidence before I decide someone is a murderer. I find convicting someone of any crime, let alone murder, based on silly rumors reprehensible. This is only one of a number of cases that infuriate me.

Last edited by detshen; 05-30-2013 at 06:44 PM..
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Old 06-01-2013, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detshen View Post
I grew up working class, first generation to even attend a college course. I worked multiple jobs all through school, and went abroad for grad school, at the time I would be considered poor by most definitions, as a student with zero parental support. When you care about something bad enough, you can make it happen, nobody gave it to me, and we know she worked in the US and in Italy, so I'm not buying this "entitled rich girl who couldn't possibly appreciate anything" line of reasoning.

I do not view her through upper middle class eyes, nor am I a "fan." I view HER CASE (and the often forgotten Raphael Solicito's case) through educated eyes that see a superstitious, corrupt prosecutor with absurd theories, and no evidence. A college student smoking a joint is not shocking to most people, and that hardly makes her some crazy party girl, there is no evidence that she was not a respectable student, just tabloid rumors that some choose to believe. I demand real evidence before I decide someone is a murderer. I find convicting someone of any crime, let alone murder, based on silly rumors reprehensible. This is only one of a number of cases that infuriate me.
I, too, worked my way through school with no parental support. I had all I could do to afford courses until I found a job that helped somewhat. I had to miss semesters, just to work to pay for the next one. I had rent to pay. I stopped smoking because money was so tight. I could never dream of going abroad at the time and neither did my friends. I know, now, kids who can barely afford community college plus their car. I do not think it is normal or average or common for most kids to go to Europe to school. That you managed does not make it common.

We, in this country, only hear one side of the story. I hear everyone defending her and nothing at all from the police and the actual case against her. So it is natural to be suspicious and to suppose the truth is a distance somewhere from what is being said by most on this thread and in the media, in general.

Why should I believe HER side, that the police set her up to blame her black boss for the murders? Didn't she realize the severity of a murder rap? Did she not care WHO she blamed it on, and her only motivation being to extricate herself?

I think 'Foxy' was a party girl, hence the name.

What about the cartwheel in court? Under the circumstances it seemed that 'our girl' might not have been thinking straight, maybe taking it for granted that mom and dad could get her out, or maybe it's just a case of too many drugs addling one's thinking? What evidence have we that it was just a little pot, anyway? Her lying word again?

I think she was acting like a spoiled brat and probably the Italian police thought the same thing. Maybe they were tired of rich (they may have thought) foreigners coming to their country and disrespecting the culture.
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
We, in this country, only hear one side of the story. I hear everyone defending her and nothing at all from the police and the actual case against her. So it is natural to be suspicious and to suppose the truth is a distance somewhere from what is being said by most on this thread and in the media, in general.

Why should I believe HER side, that the police set her up to blame her black boss for the murders? Didn't she realize the severity of a murder rap? Did she not care WHO she blamed it on, and her only motivation being to extricate herself?

I think 'Foxy' was a party girl, hence the name.

What about the cartwheel in court? Under the circumstances it seemed that 'our girl' might not have been thinking straight, maybe taking it for granted that mom and dad could get her out, or maybe it's just a case of too many drugs addling one's thinking? What evidence have we that it was just a little pot, anyway? Her lying word again?

I think she was acting like a spoiled brat and probably the Italian police thought the same thing. Maybe they were tired of rich (they may have thought) foreigners coming to their country and disrespecting the culture.
Look up the real PROVEN information and evidence, it coincides exactly with what you call "one sided," and shows she and Raphael deserve defending. All the tabloid stuff you are repeating has no basis in fact, it's just rumors and proven false info that people keep repeating. I took the time to research this in depth before accusing someone of murder, I care about false imprisonment, I don't care about Amanda personally, she is not "my girl" I have no reason to defend her other than I followed the evidence that shows her and Raphael to be not guilty of the crime.

Innocent people in jail is something I do care about, and I will always defend her, and many others in such a terrible predicament. I read everything I could find on this crime before defending her and Raphael. I even found a false website that spewed out all the tabloid rumors as truth, but I found their false links, and was able to go back and find the real information and prove it was nothing but rumors and flat out lies. This is not okay when you are accusing someone of murder, but unfortunately in Italy, prosecutors and the police are allowed to spread anything they want to the press and shape a case on it.


What about the cartwheel in court? Under the circumstances it seemed that 'our girl' might not have been thinking straight, maybe taking it for granted that mom and dad could get her out, or maybe it's just a case of too many drugs addling one's thinking? What evidence have we that it was just a little pot, anyway? Her lying word again?

I think she was acting like a spoiled brat and probably the Italian police thought the same thing. Maybe they were tired of rich (they may have thought) foreigners coming to their country and disrespecting the culture."

That quote is you adding your own tabloid fact, based on no evidence, only your theory and perceptions, which, I'm sorry if this offends, but are clearly clouded by a bias against what you feel is a "spoiled well off girl," I bet someone will repeat it somewhere even though there isn't a shread of proof that it has any basis in fact. This is a big part of the problem, rumors and perceptions spread until they are eventually treated as fact. All that should matter to anyone as far as putting someone in jail for murder is the REAL proven evidence. Nothing shows she was acting like a spoiled brat, that's just your perception. Please try to understand this; this is a woman accused of murder who spent years in prison, and could spend her life there, not a Paris Hilton to be spreading silly gossip about. That woman's entire life is on the line, that shouldn't be played with for entertainment and gossip spreading.

If you don't wish to study the case, then don't, but then please stop adding to the problem by spreading unproven rumors and theories about what happened when the reality is you don't know what happened, none of us do, we only know what has been proven with real evidence, and this shows her and Raphael to be innocent of the murder, and Rudy Guede guilty as charged of murder and sexual assault, he did it and it's been proven with actual evidence and DNA. There isn't any evidence that she or Raphael were involved, only theories and rumors, many of which have been disproven. Many are still pronounced as fact like the "cartwheel."

Would you like to sent to jail for life because someone spread a rumor that you did a cartwheel, and were a spoiled brat, party girl (no actual proof for any of that) but there is a ton of DNA all over the crime scene showing that someone already convicted of the crime did it, and NONE of your, or your boyfriend's DNA is there? It is 100% impossible to remove ones DNA from a crime scene, and leave someone else's there. The crime scene proves Rudy did it beyond any reasonable doubt, NOTHING proves Amanda or Raphael did it.

Last edited by detshen; 06-01-2013 at 06:27 PM..
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Old 06-01-2013, 08:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post

We, in this country, only hear one side of the story. I hear everyone defending her and nothing at all from the police and the actual case against her. So it is natural to be suspicious and to suppose the truth is a distance somewhere from what is being said by most on this thread and in the media, in general.
Not true, the fact that we heard her side of the story through those who knew her, and the real scientific evidence means we actually heard both sides, not just one the prosecutor fed to Italy. Everything you and other posters have been posting came from the police and prosecutors in Italy, every American who read anything about this case read all that, we heard how they were making out, doing cartwheels, buying sexy lingerie, "foxy knoxy" nickname, behaved inappropriately, was a sociopath engaging in crazy sex games, murdering over her outrageous sex needs, etc. We in the US heard all the supposed evidence against her that the prosecutor had, many thought she was guilty at first, now it's mostly only the uniformed, and people who decided they don't like her. The difference is we also heard about the evidence, and rebuttals to the rumors, but even that only really came out after they were acquitted. The Idaho innocence project, the WA senator's and other's support for her were based on the EVIDENCE.

Even an ITALIAN journalist said this:
Meo Ponte, an Italian journalist who covered the case for La Repubblica, said that many Italians thought Knox was guilty only because they did not know the details of the case. He described the original trial "shameful" for convicting Knox.

People in droves only started defending her when they started to read the actual evidence, and realized the Italian prosecutor built a case on superstition, and the idea of a "sex crazed American girl," and that the Italian jurors are allowed to read all the press stories based on the prosecutors crazy theories. There is a very good reason US juries are not allowed to read about, or discuss cases, their decision is only to be based on court evidence.

The prosecutor made up a story, and sold it through the press who were more than happy to run with the sex crazed American girl idea, it sold tons of papers. It was an utter travesty, and we should all be scared because it happens in the US as well, read about the West Memphis 3, or more recently Ryan Fergusen (convicted on someone else's false confession, and a witness who admitting to lying after the prosecutor pressured him) Norfolk 4, and many more, it's especially prevalent among the poor, and minorities with public defenders, these people need us to fight against false convictions the most. These are real people that could be any of us someday, falsely accused and sent away for life. Shameful indeed!

We must stand above our own perceptions about who someone might be, police and prosecutorial arrogance, and nonsense theories when deciding someone deserves to go to jail for life, or die for a crime.

Amanda Knox served 3 years for implicating Patrick Lumumba (plus an extra year) IMO, the police do bear some responsibilty for how he was treated, but either way, she's paid for that, her case should be over. Anyone who cares about evidence and fair criminal justice should be standing up for that, not villifying her because they don't like her.

I chose serving low income people in medicine despite my strong interest in law feeling I would be helping more people, when I see these cases I wish I could do both, although I can't imagine the utter frustration of dealing with justice systems that refuse to admit mistakes, but the least I can do is stand up for people the evidence shows to be innocent, and encourage other's to do the same.

Last edited by detshen; 06-01-2013 at 09:17 PM..
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