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If you pull a knife on a cop they will have their hand on there gun or it will already be in their hand and pointed at you.
You can back up or go in any direction with a gun in your hand.
you will not be able to travel 20ft befor you can react and pull the triger.
we/cops practice this scenario over and over we even practice taking away a gun/knife from the perp if they are with in arms reach.
I'd be care full a knife can't kill you from 20ft away.
Yes, you can travel 20 feet before a police officer can stop the threat (and lets remember also, one bullet may not stop a threat) - the well documented article's linked by Phil306 prove this. This is also well documented here, with a fresh look at the rule.
"the "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet."
To be fair...it does acknowledge that in some circumstances a police officer should withold firing until the perp starts the 'lunge" towards to officer. Just standing with a knife in hand and looking at an officer is not a reason to shoot, for an officer or private citizen. I agree with that.
Now, however, a police officer does not have a duty to retreat, a private citizen does, and of course that is what i would do if I had the chance. Practice taking away a gun or knife? huh? Are you serious? That's laughable. Yeah I would take away that gun or knife all right - from his cold dead hands. That's melodramatic of course, but I wouldn't expect a police officer to engage in melle combat with an armed oppenent if he had other ranged options. That's just silly. There are tactical moves, sure step back, move so something is between you and the bad guy - that was already discussed.
This is all hypothetical of course. As an armed private citizen, my responsibility is to avoid these situations in the first place. This includes retreating in the face of danger and using it only as a last option. As an armed police officer, I would hope he has the skills to deflect a threatening situation, the option to use non-lethal force (no not crazy TV stuff like "wrestle the knife away"), and to use lethal force only if his life or the life of someone else is in danger.
I have no issue with a police officer using legitimate lethal force in the type of instances of being threatened with an edged weapon as indicated above. Because I would not hold them accountable for any standard of personal safety that I would, as a private citizen, also follow. I do have issues in their judgement of what they consider as lethal force or not in other instances, and also of their ability to deflect a bad situation from becoming one of which lethal force is neccessary. But that is the subject for a different post if needed. I also have issues with the degree of accountability and liability when using lethal force for a private citizen vs government worker - if it was me, a private armed citizen, using legitimate lethal force - the common aftermath under the best conditions is that I would be led away in handcuffs, my weapon siezed, I would undergo hours of interregation, i would likely face legal prosecution and tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, I would most likely face a public trial, I would most likely spend at least some time in a holding cell, with my liberties taken away.
A police officer using legitimate force? - he would probably go on paid leave, face an internal review board manned by his co-workers, be protected by union representation, and most probably return to work. No jail, no legal fees, no perp walk.
Cops are not taught to shoot one time for the very fact you cite they are taught to shoot 3 times them reevaluate the threat.
Your right cops don't have to retreat but you will be taken apart on the stand in some cases if you don't. You see some want a suicide by cop.
If someone has a knife it is better to take a few steeps back (is this retreating?) and talk to them than too just pull the trigger.
Your training should have covered this.
There is nothing laughable about it at all, cops and cadets practice this and are taught how to do this in the Academy in defensive tactics class.
If I'm in arms reach, I can move your gun or gain control and I can possibly even get it to fire at your head while it is still in your hand.
Yes, it is practiced.
Remember sometimes the cop could have nothing in his hands and find them selves at knife or gun point. it is a defensive tactic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714
Now, a police officer does not have a duty to retreat, a private citizen does, and of course that is what i would do if I had the chance. Practice taking away a gun or knife? huh? Are you serious? That's laughable. Yeah I would take away that gun or knife all right - from his cold dead hands. That's melodramatic of course, but I wouldn't expect a police officer to engage in melle combat with an armed oppenent if he had other ranged options. That's just silly. There are tactical moves, sure step back, move so something is between you and the bad guy - that was already discussed.
Cops are not taught to shoot one time for the very fact you cite they are taught to shoot 3 times them reevaluate the threat.
Your right cops don't have to retreat but you will be taken apart on the stand in some cases if you don't. You see some want a suicide by cop.
If someone has a knife it is better to take a few steeps back (is this retreating?) and talk to them than too just pull the trigger.
Your training should have covered this.
Agree with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer
There is nothing laughable about it at all, cops and cadets practice this and are taught how to do this in the Academy in defensive tactics class.
If I'm in arms reach, I can move your gun or gain control and I can possibly even get it to fire at your head while it is still in your hand.
Yes, it is practiced.
Remember sometimes the cop could have nothing in his hands and find them selves at knife or gun point. it is a defensive tactic.
Yes but as a last defense, of course. Our original post was talking about a scenario where the perp is held at gunpoint and lunges at a cop, right? In that case, he takes the shot rather than try to engage in hand to hand combat.
scenarios , you see the thing is with a limited scenario like this your mind makes up what the perp is. Is he big, small, young or old or is the perp a woman.
yes, I would expect to hear gun fire and not a wrestling match.
Now tweak the scenario the perp is 15yr old and or a girl or a elderly person and not a big muscle man.
You have to be able to evaluate the threat and overcome it.
Now would you shoot or would you go to the baton or taser?
but the bottom line in a cops head is, I'm going to do whatever I need to do, so I can go home to my family after my tour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714
Yes but as a last defense, of course. Our original post was talking about a scenario where the perp is held at gunpoint and lunges at a cop, right? In that case, he takes the shot rather than try to engage in hand to hand combat.
Cops are not taught to shoot one time for the very fact you cite they are taught to shoot 3 times them reevaluate the threat.
We were taught to shoot to stop the threat, whether it takes one bullet or 100 bullets. You shoot to stop the threat.
Quote:
Your right cops don't have to retreat but you will be taken apart on the stand in some cases if you don't. You see some want a suicide by cop.
If someone has a knife it is better to take a few steeps back (is this retreating?) and talk to them than too just pull the trigger.
Your training should have covered this.
This is situational, if that person with a knife takes even one step towards you, talking time is over.
You'll look purity stupid shooting that 90yr old lady or that mentality handicapped person or that young kid.
Your carer will be over.
So you think you can shot them in the head every time?
It's hard to train cadets to even shoot twice(the old standard)
Now they teach 3 shots and of course if you or others were still in danger to keep shooting until they the threat has been eliminated.
You'll look purity stupid shooting that 90yr old lady or that mentality handicapped person or that young kid.
Your carer will be over.
Depending on the circumstances, these people can still kill you. If you wanna run backwards and talk it out with a knife wielding individual who's advancing on you, good luck with that.
Quote:
So you think you can shot them in the head every time?
It's hard to train cadets to even shoot twice(the old standard)
Now they teach 3 shots and of course if you or others were still in danger to keep shooting until they the threat has been eliminated.
Where did I say I can shoot them in the head every time? You shoot until the threat is stopped. Maybe in your academy, they teach 2 or 3 shots or whatever, but not here, not at all, not even close.
"depending", The prosecuting Atty in your trial for excessive force will tear you apart with this.
A 2yr old with a knife "can" kill you so that justified you shooting until you hear a click..
yea, a real cop uses his words more than his weapon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBCasino
Depending on the circumstances, these people can still kill you. If you wanna run backwards and talk it out with a knife wielding individual who's advancing on you, good luck with that.
You must have been laughed at every time you emptied your weapon in defensive training at the one suspect. What if you have multible old women or childeen or the handicapted coming at you with a knife. You only have one more clip, then your going for your back up.
yea, the you heard someone say you keep shooting until you empty or they are dead, this will leave you open to attck by the 2nd asalant.
You may want to rethink your stance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBCasino
Where did I say I can shoot them in the head every time? You shoot until the threat is stopped. Maybe in your academy, they teach 2 or 3 shots or whatever, but not here, not at all, not even close.
"depending", The prosecuting Atty in your trial for excessive force will tear you apart with this.
A 2yr old with a knife "can" kill you so that justified you shooting until you hear a click..
This is why I wrote "depending on the circumstances", I never mentioned a two year old, that was you.
Quote:
yea, a real cop uses his words more than his weapon
We're talking about deadly force situations and now training, of which, yours is pretty much unheard of.
Quote:
You must have been laughed at every time you emptied your weapon in defensive training at the one suspect. What if you have multible old women or childeen or the handicapted coming at you with a knife. You only have one more clip, then your going for your back up.
yea, the you heard someone say you keep shooting until you empty or they are dead, this will leave you open to attck by the 2nd asalant.
You may want to rethink your stance.
Again, you shoot to stop the threat, you stop shooting once the threat is ended, that may take 1 bullet, that may take a heck of a lot more. I never said "empty the magazine" into a suspect, where are you getting this? Now there's a second assailant and multiple children and handicapped? Keep moving those goalposts there. Anything else you wanna add in, maybe an elementary school letting out and they all have knives?
Just out of curiosity, what academy did you attend?
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