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Old 03-27-2013, 10:41 PM
 
8,440 posts, read 11,150,745 times
Reputation: 6212

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I will happily say you WON! Congratulations Lady Ice! When the subtle humor examples didn't lighten up your approach of showing everyone what I don't know, hey, cool with me.

One practice principle those of us who are fully trained and licensed in the U.S.(and have offices with private practices) know is when to disengage. No need for me to answer your questions as you'll fuel a fire about something else and I'm too busy and not interested.

I can accept what you think, but I won't offer you my copy of DSM - IVR in my office as it sounds like it will be a collector item.

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

For those who watched the HLN Bold Accusation tonight, what did you think about the questions of the mock jurors? I thought several had wonderful questions for Dr. Drew and the sex therapist. The male who pointed out how a different female set limits with Travis and he honored them, did NOT violate them, was a great point IMHO.

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

I got home really late - did anyone get the name of the lady from Australia who was going to be on Dr. Drew's show as a guest? Apparently, there were some technical problems but they will try again tomorrow. It will be interesting to hear her observations as interest appears to be increasing in many countries throughout the world and now we'll be able to hear from another in Australia to see what her view is.

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
Don,

I agree with your post.


"If you boil this case down to it's most basic elements: There is the fact that she didn't stop at just shooting him or stabbing him. She stabbed him 29 times, slit his throat, and then shot him for good measure. Any one of those would have stopped him if he was really a threat to her, but the pure savagery of the attack shows rage."

Along with the fact she could have RUNNNNNN out the door screaming for help if she felt her life was in danger, which T.A. could not after she stabbed and slit his throat. Then again, why she didn't have to drive from CA to AZ, if she was an abused woman, as is now the defense.

What makes me the angriest about this trial is how accurate symptoms of PTSD and abused people (males can be victimized too), is using those diagnoses and symptoms to defend ARIAS is wrong. A lot of people currently experiencing symptoms will deny access to treatment not wanting to be lumped with ARIAS.

Some interesting remarks about the timing of Arias' migraine h/a today after she was talking to her female attorney as long as she possibly could when court ended yesterday. Some speculate ARIAS understood the behaviors being described on the stand could be applied to her as easily or easier than T.A.

MSR

Last edited by Mtn. States Resident; 03-27-2013 at 10:54 PM..

 
Old 03-27-2013, 10:50 PM
 
8,440 posts, read 11,150,745 times
Reputation: 6212
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaWoman View Post
If you recall Susan Smith that killed her two sons, she was having sex in prison with two of the guards. She ended up with an STD and confessed to having sex with the guards. One guard had been with the prison 13 years and the other one was a prison guard captain. They both lost their jobs. Both had families can you imagine a wife at home that could have possibly ended up with an STD too. Smith was transferred to another prison.

Arias already has a fan club in prison. One of the news channels had them on one night singing Jodi's praises and how great a person she was and she was innocent.

Logically ... that is logically thinking here ... the jury can't acquit her or even find her not guilty ... can they?

She admitted to the murder the very first day. All this hoopla they are dragging the court through is just an attempt to get the death penalty off the table ... right?
Excellent post C.W.!

I can't rep you or I would.

Wow, I wish we had an expert in law here to answer some of those questions. I may have found a legal site that blogs about this trial essentially every minute. They are probably law students, but I learned a lot reading their posts. That being said, they probably reside everywhere and ARIAS will be under AZ law.

Your comment, "Logically ... that is logically thinking here ... the jury can't acquit her or even find her not guilty ... can they?" is such a good question. My understand is when Nirmi couldn't resign and the court essentially ordered these two attorneys to defend her regardless (as she's burned all her other bridges firing attorneys), is the Defense wanted to plea bargain this down and the Prosecution said no.

I'm relatively certain someone (or many here) will have far more knowledge of what was offered or not. All I know for sure is the defense really didn't want to go to trial and would have settled for a plea bargain had the Prosecutor's accepted what was proposed.

Given the above, my understanding, which could be VERY INACCURATE about legal issues, is basically she will be found guilty. She's admitted she did it. The real question is does she get the possibility or parole, prison for life with no option of parole or the death penalty.

Hopefully, others can add and clarify anything I don't know or accidentally omitted.

MSR
 
Old 03-27-2013, 11:33 PM
 
9,911 posts, read 9,299,531 times
Reputation: 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtn. States Resident View Post
Excellent post C.W.!

I can't rep you or I would.

Wow, I wish we had an expert in law here to answer some of those questions. I may have found a legal site that blogs about this trial essentially every minute. They are probably law students, but I learned a lot reading their posts. That being said, they probably reside everywhere and ARIAS will be under AZ law.

Your comment, "Logically ... that is logically thinking here ... the jury can't acquit her or even find her not guilty ... can they?" is such a good question. My understand is when Nirmi couldn't resign and the court essentially ordered these two attorneys to defend her regardless (as she's burned all her other bridges firing attorneys), is the Defense wanted to plea bargain this down and the Prosecution said no.

I'm relatively certain someone (or many here) will have far more knowledge of what was offered or not. All I know for sure is the defense really didn't want to go to trial and would have settled for a plea bargain had the Prosecutor's accepted what was proposed.

Given the above, my understanding, which could be VERY INACCURATE about legal issues, is basically she will be found guilty. She's admitted she did it. The real question is does she get the possibility or parole, prison for life with no option of parole or the death penalty.

Hopefully, others can add and clarify anything I don't know or accidentally omitted.

MSR

What got me today was the Defense wanted the costs of the trial sealed. Everyone was aware doc quacksAlot was being paid $250.00 an hour and I think this Alyce is being paid over $300.00 an hour. Last week somehow the cost of the trial so far was over $800,000 and that my dear friend is taxpayer money.

So why would the Defense team asked that the costs be sealed. This poor judge is a tad loose/lost and had to get the answer to this question. Several newspapers are going after this info through the FOI Act and since it's taxpayer money it seems it would be available.

I don't think the judge should have allowed the Alyce lady to go on and on and on with her little stories yesterday.

When Juan Martinez is questioning a witness all we have is sidebars and objections ... have you noticed Juan Martinez doesn't pull those constant interruptions. Of course that could be a legal ploy, I'm not a lawyer but it could be. I don't watch Willmott and Nurmi that often but it seems Juan sits there quietly jotting down notes.

Have you been to the website Websleuths.com ... they have several lawyers that have been qualified and verified by the owner of the website and they answer questions. The Arias trial is under the section Crimes & Trials ... Trials Sub Forum. The very first section has a sticky (first one) Legal Questions and Answer Thread No Discussion and only the four verified lawyers.
 
Old 03-27-2013, 11:52 PM
 
8,440 posts, read 11,150,745 times
Reputation: 6212
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaWoman View Post
What got me today was the Defense wanted the costs of the trial sealed. Everyone was aware doc quacksAlot was being paid $250.00 an hour and I think this Alyce is being paid over $300.00 an hour. Last week somehow the cost of the trial so far was over $800,000 and that my dear friend is taxpayer money.

So why would the Defense team asked that the costs be sealed. This poor judge is a tad loose/lost and had to get the answer to this question. Several newspapers are going after this info through the FOI Act and since it's taxpayer money it seems it would be available.

I don't think the judge should have allowed the Alyce lady to go on and on and on with her little stories yesterday.

When Juan Martinez is questioning a witness all we have is sidebars and objections ... have you noticed Juan Martinez doesn't pull those constant interruptions. Of course that could be a legal ploy, I'm not a lawyer but it could be. I don't watch Willmott and Nurmi that often but it seems Juan sits there quietly jotting down notes.

Have you been to the website Websleuths.com ... they have several lawyers that have been qualified and verified by the owner of the website and they answer questions. The Arias trial is under the section Crimes & Trials ... Trials Sub Forum. The very first section has a sticky (first one) Legal Questions and Answer Thread No Discussion and only the four verified lawyers.

Interesting and salient points, C.W. Ooh, I'll check the websleuths site. Thanks!!!!

I, too, think it's bizarre they are moving to seal the court records of the cost of defending ARIAS. It's tax payer money and the residents of AZ are paying for every aspect of this show (except the violent crime).

Maybe they think Samuels will want more when he learned what Alyce got without a Ph.D.?
Maybe it really is mostly about what Alyce L. gets hourly, which is reportedly more than both defense attorneys combined make defending ARIAS (and I'll bet J Martinez doesn't make that much either).

When export witnesses have to be brought in from a regional area, they cost more. Maybe no one in AZ would accept the case after reading details and meeting ARIAS, I don't know.

Alyce's CV is interesting. She teaches the POST course in an L.A. suburban area for officers to be expert witnesses. Her CV doesn't state clearly (at least where I could find) how many years she's been an expert witness. She's taught mostly regionally. I do think Alyce is a good teacher and easily engages listeners in her real-life stories. However, I agree with you, I think it could have ended at some point yesterday vs. giving more and more examples of her work.

Nothing wrong with any of that for an expert, but shooey, when I hear "EXPERT" I'm use to seeing the best minds in the business regardless of location or fee. There is so much strategy in trials too even about experts.

It will be interesting to see if Alyce is best utilized by the Defense or Prosecution. I think as some analysts have commented previously, Juan Martinez is 3 steps ahead of the brightest who have gone up against him in trial. No notes, not a "relief" lawyer so he can have a break...wow.
Yes, they are at sidebars if Martinez questions, but many feel if handled appropriately Martinez can use all the testimony presented and show how it applies to ARIAS. So in that sense, why not let her introduce the information and he can clarify points later?

Let's just hope ARIAS h/a improves enough she can be in court on TH. I wonder if they can use FR to make up for missing Wed.?

Thanks again for that link. I'll check it out

MSR
 
Old 03-28-2013, 12:10 AM
 
Location: 6st planet from Sun
328 posts, read 588,832 times
Reputation: 322
what time is the hanging.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 12:32 AM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,440,365 times
Reputation: 10299
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaWoman View Post
No, your rant didn't offend me ... it was just overboard with this edition of the book and that edition of the book and I am a better shrink to be than you. Which wasn't really necessary.
It was necessary because it was part of the deception that Martinez was trying to perpetrate and that MSR was fully supporting and fighting for, that the doctor was using the wrong manual. He wasn't and I stated it clearly on my first post on the matter. MSR still claims the imaginary version exists but that is just ego talking. You'll hear no more about it from me and anyone who knows what they are talking about will know that I am right. I should say again (because people are obviously not reading everything that I write) that I think the doctor was wrong in his diagnosis. That is what was bothering me so much, that Martinez used dirty tactics to discredit someone (and by extension the field of psychology) when he could have done it more conclusively with better knowledge, that is all. I actually liked some of his questions the other day because they were valid questions that actually got to the heart of where the doctor was making the symptoms fit the desired diagnosis.



Thanks for these, I've been watching it on youtube and the people commenting below on the videos are terrible. They are the morons I was referring to.

Quote:
I don't expect this jury to return a death penalty verdict for Arias but I do think they will consider life in prison without parole ... but then again I lost faith in even considering what a jury would do.

So you and I will just agree to disagree on Juan Martinez.
I agree with what you think about the verdict (so far anyway) and I am happy to agree to disagree on Martinez.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 12:56 AM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,440,365 times
Reputation: 10299
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruitlassie View Post
What lies has he told? Be specific.

It doesn't matter if you dislike him, but your assumptions about his character are so off-base that they're laughable. I live in Arizona and am familiar with many high-profile cases that he has worked (none quite as high-profile as this one, of course). He has already established an impeccable career over his decades as a prosecutor. No, I'm not "so enamored with the man I won't hear anything against him." I don't believe he is perfect, nobody is, but he is highly regarded in his field and he absolutely does care about the families of his victims.

It's very easy to look at the attention this trial is receiving online and jump to conclusions. You are basing your opinions on random posts on forums, Youtube (troll heaven!), Facebook, etc. Frankly, the majority of the public even here in Arizona doesn't know or care about Jodi Arias. While it is a fairly sensational case at the moment, that doesn't that most of the people invested in the trial are "morons" or whether their motives are more or less pure than your own.

And one more thing - probably the main reason why this case attracted so much attention is due to Jodi herself going on two national tv shows and giving interviews with a wildly different version of events than the one she's trying to sell now. This is the woman who stated "Mark my words, no jury will ever convict me." She is (or was) highly telegenic, knew it and ran with it.
I have been specific in where I think he has been wrong and I have barely scratched the surface.

I don't believe that "most of the people invested in this trial are morons", I was talking about the people commenting under the videos on youtube, I don't do facebook. Yes I am basing my opinions about morons on moronic posts, what's your point? Do you know what my other opinions on this trial are? Have you bothered to read what I actually have been saying? Or did you just see that I disagreed with Martinez and read no more? Just because I don't like Martinez it doesn't mean that I don't want justice done for the victim, I am actually afraid that his attitude, with all of his twisting people's words and the facts he has misrepresented, even if it wins this trial, is leaving too many holes and misinformation for it to stand up on appeal.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 01:05 AM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,440,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trinity1111 View Post
Oh, I see. Well, then I would respond to Lady Ice, that not just Morons, or Mormons for that matter, are interested in this trial. A lot of Legal Buffs are interested in watching the complicated judicial aspects of this trial.
*sigh*

I didn't say that all people who are interested in this trial are morons, and I said nothing about Mormons.

My Goodness!! Why do I even bother?

I really should have known better than to post here.

I won't be responding to anymore messages so go back to your usual programming folks
 
Old 03-28-2013, 03:36 AM
 
8,440 posts, read 11,150,745 times
Reputation: 6212
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaWoman View Post
What got me today was the Defense wanted the costs of the trial sealed. Everyone was aware doc quacksAlot was being paid $250.00 an hour and I think this Alyce is being paid over $300.00 an hour. Last week somehow the cost of the trial so far was over $800,000 and that my dear friend is taxpayer money.

So why would the Defense team asked that the costs be sealed. This poor judge is a tad loose/lost and had to get the answer to this question. Several newspapers are going after this info through the FOI Act and since it's taxpayer money it seems it would be available.

I don't think the judge should have allowed the Alyce lady to go on and on and on with her little stories yesterday.

When Juan Martinez is questioning a witness all we have is sidebars and objections ... have you noticed Juan Martinez doesn't pull those constant interruptions. Of course that could be a legal ploy, I'm not a lawyer but it could be. I don't watch Willmott and Nurmi that often but it seems Juan sits there quietly jotting down notes.

Have you been to the website Websleuths.com ... they have several lawyers that have been qualified and verified by the owner of the website and they answer questions. The Arias trial is under the section Crimes & Trials ... Trials Sub Forum. The very first section has a sticky (first one) Legal Questions and Answer Thread No Discussion and only the four verified lawyers.
C.W.

I was winding down my long day and making a list for tomorrow when something I wrote clicked with something you asked here.

What if the Defense doesn't want the costs known because they would have to list every mental health expert they had review Arias' case who declined to be involved? That would probably raise a lot of questions for AZ residents of how come all these experts they never heard of were paid via the defense for their review and opinions. It's just another thought but one that would actually make sense of what the Defense is really trying to hide.

I saw a graph somewhere of what the Arias case has cost compared to Anthony, Simpson - (I'm not sure if that was L.V. or his original crime in Brentwood - I'm assuming the later) and one other high profile case. ARIAS has cost a fraction to date compared to the others - somewhere in the ballpark of about $800 Million. That's a lot of $, but the others were like $5 million plus.


I also went to the Websleuthes site. Some interesting questions there too, although I don't pretend to understand if it is better to question something on re-direct vs. waiting for the closing arguments etc. I noticed the experts declined to venture a guess of when they would be done. And I'm glad the AZ attorneys validated how exceptional Martinez is as a Prosecutor and how the defense is way over their heads.

There was a very insightful post on Websleuthes that had a YouTube link. I clicked to see what was described in the testimony as I saw ZERO of this trial during the first 4-6 weeks. There were some fascinating points in that YouTube and I was going to post it here; however, the police officer or police technician - whatever his title is that handled the camera and was finally able to retrieve data from a MEMORY Card, not a SIM, described the process. I didn't think it was appropriate to post that link here as wow, there were pics I've not seen before and I've looked through the crime scene photos. What I'm referencing are the extremely graphic nude pics of ARIAS a few hours prior before she killed T.A. - and she was very much a willing participant.

That being said, there were some things that happened in court which were interesting and are probably worth seeing. The Defense Team went nuts cuz of something Martinez did with the camera. The judge had the jury take their break and then heard their complaints. They decided to unload about 3-4 years of them at that time. Everything from Nurmi saying he didn't know how to do something, and Nurmi not being able to express his points leading to a consult with Willmott etc. I haven't seen anything like that before.

DT complained they hadn't gotten the nearly 900 pages of text messages between T.A. and ARIAS until 2010 and prosecution withheld them, let alone the pics, which isn't totally correct. There were problems getting the texts from the SIM cards and other sources. The specialists working on the camera had to develop a way to retrieve the photos. Nurmi was whining that he hadn't been told there were technological difficulties instead he only said the Prosecution withheld evidence. (LOL...... Defense didn't release photos and more until what, about a month ago?).

The judge let them both go on and on listing their complaints. Then she finally asked if they were done and when they affirmed that they were, she asked Nurmi how was his client prejudiced by him not having the exact details of what the crime lab had to do to extract the pictures from the camera? That is worth seeing.

What also hit home for me in a different way is they've been working with ARIAS for 3-4 years. I'm not sure when they got the assignment. I know the original female defense attorney resigned close to the end of the year she was assigned. I'm guessing that was late 2008, but can't say for sure as ARIAS was going to represent herself for a while. I kind of felt sorry for them trying to guess the number of lies they had heard during the years. In one way Nurmi made an interesting point stating IF they had they had the almost 900 pages of texts etc. earlier they would have gone to trial closer to 2010. Of course he failed to mention they hadn't disclosed pics and other evidence to the Prosecution which also would have helped when this trial was scheduled.

I realized later if I can find that YouTube again I can simply write the person's name here and the date. That way anyone interested can go to YouTube and see all of this firsthand and I wouldn't have to post a direct post here, which I believe is inappropriate, given all that YouTube upload contains. I turned it off.

Let me know anyone/everyone your thoughts of why they want the records about the $ spent on this trial sealed. Do you think of my idea the DT doesn't want others to know how many mental health experts they had evaluate the case and turned them down has merit? Could that be their real reason for wanting the costs sealed? Of course they will never admit to it, but it is one reason they would be making this request now. There could be other reasons as well.

Thanks,


MSR
 
Old 03-28-2013, 08:31 AM
 
25,877 posts, read 39,135,773 times
Reputation: 13869
I can't stand to listen any longer to this last expert. She might be good at what she is doing but what has htis all to do with Jodi killing Travis?

The expert is just telling what her experience is and what kind of people she has come across.

She never met Travis so what is the point. The jurors must be exhausted from listening to every word. I turned it off to just listen to the recap.

I think Juan Martinez will be very short and probably has 2-5 questions for her and Jodi's migraine will be much severe since her 15 min. of fame will be over and she will be living he narcasitic life behind bars until she will be put to death or forever...JMO!
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