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Old 03-31-2013, 12:03 AM
 
8,440 posts, read 11,150,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper12 View Post
Jodie is such a textbook example of BPD.

Borderline personality disorder: Symptoms - MayoClinic.com

"They see things as black and white, and can go into a rage over the slightest misunderstanding".
Thanks for posting the above reference, Jasper. Absolutely, BPD see things in black and white. I'm glad others can read more about BPD's, as I consider that another positive thing about this trial. Some may have friends/family members, co-workers or others who have so many symptoms and they don't know how to work with the person. PROFESSIONAL HELP!

I believe it was you Jasper, and I apologize if I've gotten the posts confused, but I believe it was you who mentioned child abuse and how BPD's will exaggerate an event that happened in childhood (or later) greatly. I agree that is true. My additional thought about your comment is as far as treatment, it doesn't really matter if it was a factual event or a fantasized one - to a true BPD - it only matters what his/her perception was/is.

The above being written, there can be many symptoms that overlap with other Personality Disorders and even more "normal mental health issues too."

Also, was she ever seen by a Psychiatrist? Does anyone know? I understand the different roles in mental health, and a psychologist is the one who administers the psychometric tests. However, a psychiatrist is the only one who could prescribe medication and do some additional testing to help reach a diagnosis.

Perhaps these are some of the details no one knows yet. If anyone does, please post a link. I'd be very interested in what a psychiatrist thought of her.

I do have a few problems opting out for BPD in her, given some of the subtle things stated in the Mayo link and elsewhere, and based on what an earlier boyfriend said about her (is it Darryl, the one she co-bought a house with in Palm Desert that was the one she lived with the longest?). To him, she seemed very stable, would work etc. which is why they decided to purchase a house together. He talked about how she changed after she met T.A. and why he couldn't take all her changes and had to move.


Another example for me where I see this a bit differently than the symptoms Mayo listed is ARIAS states she attempted suicide, or planned on killing herself or whatever with that razor blade. However, to the best of my knowledge and what I can see for myself, I can't see scars of where she slashed herself.

Most BPDs in that much pain don't just plan suicide, they are successful, if they've not put support systems in place and gotten mental health care. Even with the additional help and support, sometimes BDP's still kill themselves. Many BPDs are institutionalized (hospitalized) multiple times. Whether or not ARIAS has ever been hospitalized for suicide attempts, I have zero knowledge.

From the Mayo Link under "Tests and Diagnoses," they have posted the following:

"For borderline personality disorder to be diagnosed, at least five of the following signs and symptoms must be present:

Intense fear of abandonment
Pattern of unstable relationships
Unstable self-image or sense of identity
Impulsive and self-destructive behaviors
Suicidal behavior or self-injury
Wide mood swings
Chronic feelings of emptiness
Anger-related problems, such as frequently losing your temper or having physical fights
Periods of paranoia and loss of contact with reality"

For me, compared to BPDs I've seen, I can't find 5 criteria she meets in the above. Perhaps other boyfriends testified to other behaviors they observed and I'm not aware, I don't know. I'd absolutely agree 1000% that she has: "Unstable self-image or sense of identity." She would always change what she did based on which guy she was seeing/living with at the time so she could be more like them.

I don't know the ratio, but true BPD's almost always hurt or kill themselves vs. another meaning murder someone else. "Suicidal behavior or self-injury" as listed above.

I was trying to think if I've ever heard of someone who abused children or animals as using BPD as their defense. I can't recall any but others may.

If there is evidence of more symptoms of other behaviors prior to her having met T.A., then I'd re-think how I've arrived at my differential for her. I've not seen, and honestly have not searched, whether her friends and family submitted or testified about ARIAS stating something like, "She did X 15 years ago, or she was always trying to slash her wrists, or she spent 2 weeks in inpatient psychiatry at age 20 etc." There may be more symptoms that would seal the diagnosis and if so, I wonder both why the DT didn't call her family to the stand to testify of the mental health care she'd required for X number of years as well as more testing from SAMUELS. I'm not getting paid $300.00/hr. to figure out what does or doesn't make her tick. I think she exhibited more of these behaviors AFTER she met and pursued T.A., but there are other diagnoses that could cover those symptoms too.

What Mayo didn't list is the duration of these behaviors to be diagnosed as a BPD.

This is a great post, Jasper, as again, everyone can decide for themselves not only for ARIAS but others in their lives who might need professional help learn more about Borderline Personality Disorders.

Thanks for the post

MSR

Last edited by Mtn. States Resident; 03-31-2013 at 12:46 AM..

 
Old 03-31-2013, 12:07 AM
 
18,852 posts, read 31,698,893 times
Reputation: 26111
Quote:
If she did ever receive any type of counseling, it would probably only have served to teach her how to be even more manipulative, IMO.
I have seen this happen. And they learn how to manipulate the system quite well.

As for BPD hurting themselves, mostly they are cutters, and in for the drama, and attention seeking, rather than true suicidal. And if they are, it is usually using drugs. Angelina Jolie played a BPD in "Girl Interupted", and some think that she is also a BPD, http://voices.yahoo.com/what-borderl...s-7813366.html

Quote from this website:

The keyword in summing up Borderline Personality Disorder is instability. BPD is a serious mental illness characterized by pervasive instability in: 1) Moods or emotions, 2) Interpersonal relationships, and 3) Self-image.

Mood Swings & Its Cause Of Relationship Problems
People with BPD tend to d evelop intense but stormy relationships with people. They vacillate between being on and off in their attitudes towards family, friends, and loved ones. Here is why. People with BPD tend to shift from idealization (great admiration and love for others) to devaluation (intense anger and dislike) on a dime. The idealization element of their personality is ideal (makes is easy) in forming an immediate attachment to another person and they can even come across as charismatic (likeable) because of the energy they could expend in trying to get you to like them.

What makes a person with BPD so relationally volatile is that they are highly sensitive to rejection. If a person with BPD suspects or perceives that someone is not caring for them or pulling away from them in just the slightest degree, the unpleasant element of devaluation occurs and they drastically switch from adoring you to the other extreme of being intensely angry, hateful and will begin to withdrawal from you. This can occur through such mild separations as a vacation, sudden change in plans or a forgotten call.

BPD is a lifetime disorder, there is some treatment available, that has been successful, DBT training, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect...havior_therapy
Personally, I don't think it works. But a BPD will do it, and pretend to care and change, usually because they are just manipulating, to get back to their dysfunction, which they think is perfectly fine. The rest of the world is the problem.

Last edited by jasper12; 03-31-2013 at 12:20 AM.. Reason: edit
 
Old 03-31-2013, 12:24 AM
 
8,440 posts, read 11,150,745 times
Reputation: 6212
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaWoman View Post
The defense team is throwing anything they can on the wall and just hopes at least one thing will stick with the jury ... childhood abuse ... yet she has slapped her mother and kicked her too ... the DT then goes with the pedophile ... then tried the PTSD to account for the fog ... he was going to attack her ... now they are trying physical/mental abuse.

As a teenager she quit school and moved out of her parents house. Even at 32 she still doesn't get along with her mother yet her mother is sitting in that courtroom each day. I just can't get past all the lies and drama with Arias. The two days of court canceled due to 'migraines' ... if she truly was suffering a migraine headache she wouldn't simply be sitting there. It could just be a tension headache if one is to believe her.

I have raised three children and they never laid a hand nor a foot on me in anger. LOL
All of your posts are so good C.W. I didn't get to comment on any of them before you added this great one too. I still can't rep anyone or I would have. I agree with you. I often wonder how her family can sit behind her in court when she's said what she has about them.

I also agree, it's been one thing after another of why she killed T.A. That's where I start to get angry with attorneys and the experts that will go along with the "Diagnosis for the day," to see if anything sways the jury. The lies and drama - AMEN to that. True victims of DV, child and/or sexual abuse and more are being hurt due to the various defenses utilized to date. I think of how many people will be more reluctant to seek help after this trial and that truly makes me sad.

And yes, she should shouldn't have been able to tolerate even the lights and noise of court, let alone other things if she has true migraines. But, only those treating her know for sure. The rest of us can only compare her to those we know with Migraines that severely limit their activity or when they get migraines.

So it sounds like she never completed high school, if I am reading your post correctly? Interesting how she learned the vocabulary she uses in court, especially with Martinez. She didn't correct others like she did Martinez, which shows another aspect of her need for control, IMO.

I wonder how she has tried to improve herself to be a better person while being in jail? She could get her GED, attend church services etc. I have zero knowledge if she's done anything like that.

Thanks for the info above

MSR
 
Old 03-31-2013, 12:39 AM
 
8,440 posts, read 11,150,745 times
Reputation: 6212
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper12 View Post
I have seen this happen. And they learn how to manipulate the system quite well.

As for BPD hurting themselves, mostly they are cutters, and in for the drama, and attention seeking, rather than true suicidal. And if they are, it is usually using drugs. Angelina Jolie played a BPD in "Girl Interupted", and some think that she is also a BPD, What is Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)? Celebrities that May Have It - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com

Quote from this website:

The keyword in summing up Borderline Personality Disorder is instability. BPD is a serious mental illness characterized by pervasive instability in: 1) Moods or emotions, 2) Interpersonal relationships, and 3) Self-image.

Mood Swings & Its Cause Of Relationship Problems
People with BPD tend to d evelop intense but stormy relationships with people. They vacillate between being on and off in their attitudes towards family, friends, and loved ones. Here is why. People with BPD tend to shift from idealization (great admiration and love for others) to devaluation (intense anger and dislike) on a dime. The idealization element of their personality is ideal (makes is easy) in forming an immediate attachment to another person and they can even come across as charismatic (likeable) because of the energy they could expend in trying to get you to like them.

What makes a person with BPD so relationally volatile is that they are highly sensitive to rejection. If a person with BPD suspects or perceives that someone is not caring for them or pulling away from them in just the slightest degree, the unpleasant element of devaluation occurs and they drastically switch from adoring you to the other extreme of being intensely angry, hateful and will begin to withdrawal from you. This can occur through such mild separations as a vacation, sudden change in plans or a forgotten call.

BPD is a lifetime disorder, there is some treatment available, that has been successful, DBT training, Dialectical behavior therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Personally, I don't think it works. But a BPD will do it, and pretend to care and change, usually because they are just manipulating, to get back to their dysfunction, which they think is perfectly fine. The rest of the world is the problem.
Jasper,

I TOTALLY agree BPDs are usually manipulative and certainly can use prior treatment/system to their advantage. That's why I wrote that they are tough, at least for me.

Your statement above, "BPD is a lifetime disorder, there is some treatment available" which I know you quoted from wiki goes to what I asked in an earlier post.

Yes, BPD is a lifetime disorder. Who else can testify to her exhibiting these behaviors prior to T.A.? She may well have been doing some of the things for 10+ years, I don't know. If indeed there is testimony/documentation that she did these things with others and for X amount of years (prior to meeting T.A.), I hope someone will post the links. I'd like to read them as the few interviews I've seen or read are about past boyfriends and no one ever mentioned violence or the extreme black and white thinking - the idealization/hate part in what I've seen/read. That doesn't mean she didn't display those behaviors.... I just haven't heard or read of anyone stating she did.

What I have read is if she had a problem with a boyfriend she usually had someone already lined up to be her next romantic partner, or she returned to a previous boyfriend.

If she did exhibit BPD behaviors throughout her life prior to T.A., wouldn't it benefit her if the attorneys called those with that knowledge to her defense?

Interesting discussion.

MSR

Last edited by Mtn. States Resident; 03-31-2013 at 12:49 AM..
 
Old 03-31-2013, 12:56 AM
 
9,911 posts, read 9,299,531 times
Reputation: 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtn. States Resident View Post
All of your posts are so good C.W. I didn't get to comment on any of them before you added this great one too. I still can't rep anyone or I would have. I agree with you. I often wonder how her family can sit behind her in court when she's said what she has about them.

I also agree, it's been one thing after another of why she killed T.A. That's where I start to get angry with attorneys and the experts that will go along with the "Diagnosis for the day," to see if anything sways the jury. The lies and drama - AMEN to that. True victims of DV, child and/or sexual abuse and more are being hurt due to the various defenses utilized to date. I think of how many people will be more reluctant to seek help after this trial and that truly makes me sad.

And yes, she should shouldn't have been able to tolerate even the lights and noise of court, let alone other things if she has true migraines. But, only those treating her know for sure. The rest of us can only compare her to those we know with Migraines that severely limit their activity or when they get migraines.

So it sounds like she never completed high school, if I am reading your post correctly? Interesting how she learned the vocabulary she uses in court, especially with Martinez. She didn't correct others like she did Martinez, which shows another aspect of her need for control, IMO.

I wonder how she has tried to improve herself to be a better person while being in jail? She could get her GED, attend church services etc. I have zero knowledge if she's done anything like that.

Thanks for the info above

MSR

She got her GED while in jail ... people keep saying prison but she is in jail and if convicted will be relocated to the big house ... a prison.

She is smart and has a good vocab and most of the time when Nurmi was questioning her she was very articulate. She was with Juan Martinez too until Martinez put the pressure on. Then Arias said that Martinez's tone and "posture" was effecting her and "making her brain scramble". That's the second time she's used that phrase about the prosecutor.

OH My ... there is another one the DT can throw against the wall ... "brain scrambling!" Of course they will have to search far and wide to find an expert on brain scrambling. LOL I might apply for that job, I could talk for hours and hours and hours at $200 to $300 an hour. I am an expert, I had my brain scrambled in an accident in 2004 and for five months I was in The Twilight Zone even met Rod Serling.' Yes I could that.

If Arias is sent to prison instead of the death penalty ... she will work the system ... a college degree ... her Master's Degree and eventually her Phd. Unless the jury lets her walk or can't agree on the verdict and ends up hung.
 
Old 03-31-2013, 01:03 AM
 
8,440 posts, read 11,150,745 times
Reputation: 6212
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruitlassie View Post
She is a high school dropout, she got her GED in jail.

I think counseling would not have helped this individual. She reads as a classic narcissistic sociopath to me. In all her time on the stand did she manage to eke out a single tear? She did "sob" once or twice with her hands covering her face. She has never shown remorse. She was perfectly calm when she visited Ryan Burns, not shaken in the least by the events of the previous day. Her behavior is always carefully controlled. She begged Detective Flores to show her the crime scene and/or autopsy photos (forget which). She comes alive when the camera is on her. If she did ever receive any type of counseling, it would probably only have served to teach her how to be even more manipulative, IMO.
Thanks fruitlassie,

I'm glad to know she has gotten her GED in jail.

I don't disagree with your thoughts above. That's where this gets so dicey and tricky as so many behaviors she exhibited can fit more than one personality disorder. However, it is usually sociopaths, as far as I know, that attempt to physical injure another vs. trying to hurt only themselves. Manipulation fits with all of those types of Personality Disorders- and she has that down to an exact science in the courtroom, IMHO.

Given that today is Easter, and I don't know if ARIAS is a practicing Mormon or not currently. She certainly hasn't followed all she should do to be a better Mormon than she was - and T.A. was NOT the one responsible for her "spiritual" progression. Be it counseling for issues she had, not understanding scriptures and the meaning or so many other things, there are others who were her designated Mormon leaders and to whom she should have consulted, not T.A.

My thought/question, is given that today is Easter, if ARIAS is practicing Christian beliefs as a Mormon, I keep wondering if she feels anything about T.A.'s death differently today about a human being dead because of her actions. I know we'll never know and if she said something I wouldn't necessarily believe her.

Thanks for the info

MSR
 
Old 03-31-2013, 01:20 AM
 
8,440 posts, read 11,150,745 times
Reputation: 6212
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaWoman View Post
She got her GED while in jail ... people keep saying prison but she is in jail and if convicted will be relocated to the big house ... a prison.

She is smart and has a good vocab and most of the time when Nurmi was questioning her she was very articulate. She was with Juan Martinez too until Martinez put the pressure on. Then Arias said that Martinez's tone and "posture" was effecting her and "making her brain scramble". That's the second time she's used that phrase about the prosecutor.

OH My ... there is another one the DT can throw against the wall ... "brain scrambling!" Of course they will have to search far and wide to find an expert on brain scrambling. LOL I might apply for that job, I could talk for hours and hours and hours at $200 to $300 an hour. I am an expert, I had my brain scrambled in an accident in 2004 and for five months I was in The Twilight Zone even met Rod Serling.' Yes I could that.

If Arias is sent to prison instead of the death penalty ... she will work the system ... a college degree ... her Master's Degree and eventually her Phd. Unless the jury lets her walk or can't agree on the verdict and ends up hung.
Oh C.W., I know these are all such serious issues for those who have truly been abused, have mental health issues that haven't received treatment, let alone the fact T.A. is DEAD.

However, I couldn't stop laughing when I read you would be willing to be the "brain scrambling" expert at that fee. If I were you, I'd just send your proposal and costs to Nurmi NOW! You could make a lot of money talking about your own experiences and if you get a little rattled in court, I'm sure you could just start again talking for several more hours as your brain must have gotten "scrambled again," due to court.
Then you could write your book.......

Back to a more serious subject, what happens with a hung jury? I probably better research that one more. Like so many have stated here, after C. Anthony, we all are hesitant to say what we think will happen the jury, as we've seen the impossible happen twice: OJ Simpson and C. Anthony.

And IMHO, many of us are partly following this case given the similarities to see if a different jury/judge will arrive at the same conclusion as with Anthony verdict. Juan Martinez is the only one who can speak for T.A.in the courtroom, but I think a lot of us admire that he doesn't get suckered into some of her patterns.

MSR
 
Old 03-31-2013, 01:06 PM
 
Location: in my mind
4,754 posts, read 6,524,948 times
Reputation: 9477
See how your opinions about this case compare with others -

A blogger on The Huffington Post posted an anonymous survey there last week about this case, and over 3500 people responded.

You can read the summary of her results here: Travis Alexander Murder Trial Survey article

And then the specific results on every question: Travis Alexander Murder Trial Survey Results (you can also go to this by clicking on the headline of the article in the page I linked above).
 
Old 03-31-2013, 01:34 PM
 
1,817 posts, read 2,758,130 times
Reputation: 3527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtn. States Resident View Post
Thanks fruitlassie,

I'm glad to know she has gotten her GED in jail.

I don't disagree with your thoughts above. That's where this gets so dicey and tricky as so many behaviors she exhibited can fit more than one personality disorder. However, it is usually sociopaths, as far as I know, that attempt to physical injure another vs. trying to hurt only themselves. Manipulation fits with all of those types of Personality Disorders- and she has that down to an exact science in the courtroom, IMHO.
That's the way I look at it as well. I am just an "armchair" psychologist, though, so my two cents are only worth just that. I certainly appreciate all of the professional insights on this case and theories about what makes Jodi tick.

I came across a blog today from a psychotherapist named Dr. Kristina Randle who has written several recent posts about Jodi's possible diagnosis and the case in general. She feels that Jodi has Antisocial Personality Disorder. I think her blog is a good read, whether or not one agrees with all of her points.

As for what would happen with a hung jury...a mistrial would be declared. I don't have a crystal ball, but I cannot see this particular case ending with a hung jury. I think she will get first degree murder because the evidence for premeditation is overwhelming.
 
Old 03-31-2013, 01:45 PM
 
1,817 posts, read 2,758,130 times
Reputation: 3527
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittenSparkles View Post
See how your opinions about this case compare with others -

A blogger on The Huffington Post posted an anonymous survey there last week about this case, and over 3500 people responded.

You can read the summary of her results here: Travis Alexander Murder Trial Survey article

And then the specific results on every question: Travis Alexander Murder Trial Survey Results (you can also go to this by clicking on the headline of the article in the page I linked above).
Wow! Not too much gray area there...

The responses to "Who should play Jodi in the Lifetime movie?" are absolutely hilarious (Casey Anthony, Gollum, Octomom, Dakota Fanning, Paris Hilton, Ugly Betty... ) Thanks for posting. I did vote in the survey and suffice to say I was with the majority on virtually all of the questions.
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