Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Please post links for sealed and supposedly unreleased evidence grand jury used for indictment.
Not available to the public as of now, as you well know.
We know for sure that 7 separate criminal counts were prepared by the prosecutors against PR and JR, since the true bills were numbered #4a and #7. There is some supposition that there were 9. Since only 4 out of 18 pages were released, we don't know what the rest contained.
A grand jury does not make its decision in the context of an adversary proceeding. Grand jurors see and hear only what prosecutors put before them. The whole point of a grand jury is to decide if there is enough evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, to prosecute.
That’s what I keep coming back to in my mind. There was a panel of 12 people--everyday people just like you and me. Nine or more, possibly all, of those twelve people voted to indict John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey for accessory and child abuse because they did see that there was enough evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, to prosecute.
These grand jurors were just normal people: a state employee; an accountant; a retiree; a realtor; a nutritionist; a mother/grandmother; a manager; a Navy veteran; a non-profit organization employee; a service technician; a mother/night school student; and a chemical engineer. This wasn’t just ordinary jury duty where twelve people have information shoved at them for 3 days to a week or two and then are asked to pass judgment. These twelve people heard testimony and were given facts of the case that we may never know. They deliberated for over a year and had time to thoroughly think through all of information.
So I have to ask myself this--Who did those grand jurors think the Ramseys helped in the aftermath of JonBenet’s death? Did those 12 people believe that John and Patsy Ramsey were accessories to an intruder? I don’t think so.
Except that the Whites were at the Ramseys' house. We still don't know who the "grandmother" was who gave permission for BR to be interviewed by Det Patterson while BR was at the Whites. (From what I've read, after he interviewed BR, Patterson apparently believed that BR did not know anything about what happened that night.)
That's all the better from the Ramseys' pov. Those were people that BR didn't know very well and hadn't been around much, so chances of him opening up to them were slim to none.
Re - the Patterson interview
Kolar's description, which I assume is from his reading of Patterson's report/notes, is interesting. From memory here - he described BR as unemotional, mainly interested in eating his sandwiches, and having no interest at all in what happened to his sister. He said BR was cramming his mouth so full of sandwich that it took a while for him to answer P's questions.
There was a panel of 12 people--everyday people just like you and me. Nine or more, possibly all, of those twelve people voted to indict John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey for accessory and child abuse because they did see that there was enough evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, to prosecute.
But the "evidence" presented was what the BPD gave to the prosecution, e.g. the RN was written on a notepad found in the Ramseys' home, that JBR was sexually abused prior to the night of the murder (untrue, but the BPD brought in a "panel" of people who said so), the strangling was "staged," etc, etc.
"The only requirement is that probable cause exists to support criminal charges against the accused person. In essence, the grand juror must feel there is enough evidence against the person to proceed to trial. It is a very low standard. You could have one witness, a victim, come in and testify without any corroborating physical evidence and get an indictment." 6 of your questions about grand juries, answered | MSNBC
Quote:
This wasn’t just ordinary jury duty where twelve people have information shoved at them for 3 days to a week or two
At least with a regular trial, the jurors receive information from both the prosecution and the defense.
Quote:
Who did those grand jurors think the Ramseys helped in the aftermath of JonBenet’s death? Did those 12 people believe that John and Patsy Ramsey were accessories to an intruder? I don’t think so.
But the true bills read "on or between Dec. 25 and Dec. 26," so they apparently believed that both parents were involved either in the murder or a cover up of the murder. Who wouldn't vote to indict, based on the prosecutors' "evidence"? I'm actually surprised that the parents weren't indicted on all the other criminal counts as well. It's too bad that the entire document can't be released.
That's all the better from the Ramseys' pov. Those were people that BR didn't know very well and hadn't been around much, so chances of him opening up to them were slim to none.
Fleet White, Jr, was a very close friend of BR's, and Daphne White was apparently JonBenet's best friend. If a child would spill something he knew, he might do it around his childhood friends.
Quote:
Re - the Patterson interview Kolar's description, which I assume is from his reading of Patterson's report/notes, is interesting. From memory here - he described BR as unemotional, mainly interested in eating his sandwiches, and having no interest at all in what happened to his sister.
Yeah, Kolar is definitely anti-Ramsey, looking for everything he could find to point to a Ramsey being the killer. And his book is so full of errors, it's astounding. (I read somewhere that he worked on this case for only 10 months; maybe that's why.)
From the Reddit interview w/ Kolar:
"question: Based on your personal investigation, do you think that the perpetrators of this crime had help covering their tracks immediately after JonBenet's death and or shortly after her body was found?
jameskolar: I think a cover-up began not long after the family left their home on the afternoon of the discovery of their daughter's body."
So if that were true, and it is known that all 3 of the Ramseys had at minimum one member of LE with them 24/7 from the time they were told to leave their home after the body was found (which JR thought was to protect them but of course later realized was because he and PR were considered suspects), where is the evidence of this cover up in all the thousands of police reports that were filed on this case?
Fleet White, Jr, was a very close friend of BR's, and Daphne White was apparently JonBenet's best friend. If a child would spill something he knew, he might do it around his childhood friends.
That's true. Who, then, would that child tell? My bet would be a parent, which leads us right back to where we were . The Ramseys' felt their safest bet was to have BR out of the house and at the Whites'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4Now
From the Reddit interview w/ Kolar:
"question: Based on your personal investigation, do you think that the perpetrators of this crime had help covering their tracks immediately after JonBenet's death and or shortly after her body was found? jameskolar: I think a cover-up began not long after the family left their home on the afternoon of the discovery of their daughter's body."
I agree, that is confusing to me too. Maybe he was purposely vague because the case is still open.
I'm not familiar with detective lingo, so this is just purely a boneheaded guess . Maybe everything that surrounded the strangulation/other stuff that was done to the body prior to the discovery of the body is considered "staging," which would include the ransom note, etc. What happened later is called "cover-up." For example, the "cover-up" part could be their "accidentally" losing the cell phone, changing their stories over and over, having no recall of BR owing hi-tech boots, asking Pam to go to the house to retrieve some things that they felt might incriminate them later, etc.
That’s what I keep coming back to in my mind. There was a panel of 12 people--everyday people just like you and me. Nine or more, possibly all, of those twelve people voted to indict John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey for accessory and child abuse because they did see that there was enough evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, to prosecute.
These grand jurors were just normal people: a state employee; an accountant; a retiree; a realtor; a nutritionist; a mother/grandmother; a manager; a Navy veteran; a non-profit organization employee; a service technician; a mother/night school student; and a chemical engineer. This wasn’t just ordinary jury duty where twelve people have information shoved at them for 3 days to a week or two and then are asked to pass judgment. These twelve people heard testimony and were given facts of the case that we may never know. They deliberated for over a year and had time to thoroughly think through all of information.
So I have to ask myself this--Who did those grand jurors think the Ramseys helped in the aftermath of JonBenet’s death? Did those 12 people believe that John and Patsy Ramsey were accessories to an intruder? I don’t think so.
Yes, exactly. And, this case is 20 years old at this point. With all of the evidence available, I'm still surprised that anyone thinks the family wasn't involved in this crime. Unbelievable. The intruder "theory" has always been & always will be ridiculous.
I'm not familiar with detective lingo, so this is just purely a boneheaded guess . Maybe everything that surrounded the strangulation/other stuff that was done to the body prior to the discovery of the body is considered "staging," which would include the ransom note, etc. What happened later is called "cover-up." For example, the "cover-up" part could be their "accidentally" losing the cell phone, changing their stories over and over, having no recall of BR owing hi-tech boots, asking Pam to go to the house to retrieve some things that they felt might incriminate them later, etc.
I think staging meant that it was set up to look like something it wasn’t. The BPD apparently believed that the RN was staged. Those who believed the strangling was staged do not think that the person who did this actually did try to sexually molest her before finally hitting her on the head and killing her; they think the cord was put around her neck and wrists to make it appear that she was strangled when she was not. (Apparently ignoring the physical evidence and the autopsy report?)
I’ve never heard about a cell phone missing; can you explain? BR didn’t own Hi-Tec boots (see previous threads). Pam Paugh went to the Ramseys’ home before the funeral because the family had no clothing or possessions to take to Atlanta. She was accompanied by LE, who kept a record of what she took, which included family memorabilia.
A comment of Pam Paugh's, when interviewed about this case in 1998, from acandyrose:
"Pam Paugh: With all due respect to your listeners out there who spend hours and hours in those chat rooms and Timelines or whatever it is called, I don't know the lingo, it is like the old fashion gossip game, depending on who your talking to it goes down forty people and at the end at the forth person the story is totally different than what it began. And it goes from speculation from the first comment that posted to fact at the end. So I don't hold any credence there. What needs to be done is the information that has been gleaned from an evidentiary standpoint and people who where active in this family circle must hold the true keys to unlock this case and only going to the grand jury where those things can be brought up under oath in a factual setting will we be able to get to the end of this case. And my problem has always been this, there was not a full open investigation because I know on the 28th when I told the police I had concerns about John's plane, please go check the plane, make sure there is no bomb in it, oh we have already done that, you know in fact he won't be going anywhere. Well, if that's not a statement of John Ramsey had something to do with it, what is. So you can't tell me from the 28th to today something between then and now changed. They decided two days later that Patsy and John were involved in this and they have spent two years trying to stick round pegs into square holes and that is why there has been no results to this, that and the fact that the best guy they had to put on it was a street narcotics cop."
BR didn’t own Hi-Tec boots (see previous threads).
I would have to go look up the cell phone stuff. I'll try later.
Re - the Hi-Tec boots, Levin/PR/Wood, Atllanta Interview
Lin Wood does not like what he's hearing.
18 Q. You have been asked about whether 19 or not anyone in your family owns Hi-Tec 20 shoes or ever owned Hi-Tec shoes? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And I am not restating a 23 question, Mr. Wood. And do you recall you 24 said no one ever did? 25 A. Yes. .........................................
13 Q. (By Mr.Levin) I will state this 14 as a fact. There are two people who have 15 provided us with information, including your 16 son, that he owned Hi-Tec shoes prior to the 17 murder of your daughter. 18 MR. WOOD: You are stating that 19 Burke Ramsey has told you he owned Hi-Tec 20 shoes? 21 MR. LEVIN: Yes. 22 MR. WOOD: He used the phrase 23 Hi-Tec? 24 MR. LEVIN: Yes. 25 MR. WOOD: When?
...........................................
1 MR. LEVIN: I can't, I can't give 2 you the source. I can tell you that I have 3 that information. 4 MR. WOOD: You said Burke told 5 you. 6 MR. LEVIN: I can't quote it to 7 you for reasons I am sure, as an attorney, 8 you are aware 9 MR. WOOD: Just so it is clear, 10 there is a difference between you saying that 11 somebody said Burke told them and Burke 12 telling you because Burke has been 13 interviewed by you all December of 1996, 14 January of 1997, June of 1998. 15 Are you saying that it is within 16 those interviews? 17 MR. LEVIN: No. 18 MR. WOOD: So he didn't tell you, 19 he told somebody else you are stating as a 20 fact because I don't think you all have 21 talked to him other than those occasions, 22 have you? 23 MR. KANE: Mr. Wood, we don't 24 want to get into grand jury information. 25 Okay?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. The Ramseys' felt their safest bet was to have BR out of the house and at the Whites'.