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Aruba is a constituent country of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, not some third world backwater island. Dutch law is practiced in Aruba, and there's nothing wrong with Dutch law.
Clearly there are different perspectives on the decision by Natalie's family to confront the suspect upon arrival on the Island. Presumably this is exactly what they would have done had the disappearance occurred under USA, rather than Dutch, law. Presumably they would have been applauded for confronting the only suspect in the disappearance regardless of where this happened. Personally, I disagree with vigilante justice and think there is much to be gained by allowing trained professionals the opportunity to do their jobs.
Nevertheless, it is important to note that Dutch law was immediately broken by Natalie's family and USA media outlets. Furthermore, Dutch investigators were presented as bumbling fools from the outset, and Dutch law was criticized simply because it is different from USA law. Those who took this position when Natalie's parents landed on the Island very likely still hold that view today. Perhaps there's some value to stepping out of the Holloway mindset and questioning whether vigilante justice is the best course of action under Dutch law.
Given that the family interfered with the investigation from the outset, and this was never solved, can we really blame officials alone for that failure? If a woman disappeared in NYC and the family immediately confronted the suspect at the suspect's home with a gang of angry people, what do you think would have happened? Does that seem like the right thing to do?
Yep, you obviously have a vested interest in blaming Natalie & her parents and defending
the corrupt, incompetent & ineffective investigation that occurred.
Wondering if you knew Joran or if you were involved in the investigation.
Yep, you obviously have a vested interest in blaming Natalie & her parents and defending
the corrupt, incompetent & ineffective investigation that occurred.
Wondering if you knew Joran or if you were involved in the investigation.
I don't have a vested interest in anything. I am, however, inclined to step away from the emotional, subjective viewpoint of the parents of the missing child. I am suggesting that vigilante justice is not the correct decision in the Netherlands or in the USA. Would anyone disagree? Is there ever a situation where vigilante justice leads to a good result?
The Dutch government allowed the FBI full access to all persons who were detained during the investigation. Several people were detained for days or weeks without charges and without the benefit of a lawyer. That is Dutch law. USA law would have given the detained persons many more rights. The FBI were unable to solve the case even though the detained persons did not have a lawyer sitting by their sides.
Does that mean that the FBI are "corrupt, incompetent, and ineffective", or does that mean that from the outset investigators had their hands tied because they lost the upper hand? Rather than allowing the seventeen year old youth to think that he had gotten away with murder, and to carefully and silently monitor him and gather evidence, the suspect was thrust into the USA media ... and he had the upper hand from that moment forth.
If a woman disappeared in NYC and the family immediately confronted the suspect at the suspect's home with a gang of angry people, what do you think would have happened? Does that seem like the right thing to do?
If I thought my child could be in that home kidnapped or that
the suspect knew where my child was I would not be worried about "the right thing to do"
If I thought my child could be in that home kidnapped or that
the suspect knew where my child was I would not be worried about "the right thing to do"
Sure, let's suppose that someone thinks their eighteen year old daughter is in a house in NYC, so they gather a group of angry friends and demand to search the property. Perhaps that is normal for NYC, but that is not how it is normally done in other parts of the world. Police are responsible for doing searches, and even in the NYC there has to be probable cause for a search warrant.
Natalie, a young woman under the law, was last seen on the beach with a seventeen year old youth. She had been partying hard for four days and was waving happily at school friends when they last saw her. There was no evidence to suggest that she was in a private residence, and even in NYC no warrant would be issued for a search of the private residence of a child who was last seen with a missing woman. Does that mean that the NYC police are "corrupt, incompetent, and ineffective"?
If you followed the case, you will remember that many US talking heads assumed that being detained meant being arrested, but that wasn't the case. Then the talking heads got people really mixed up by suggesting that arrested people were released. Natalie's parents and the talking heads fed Joran and his friends investigative information on a daily basis, ensuring that the only person who could give information was always one step ahead of the law.
I think we need to drop the double standard. Dutch law is different from USA law, but it is not inferior. Vigilante justice is not acceptable under USA or Dutch law, and searches require legal search warrants - not angry mobs. There is no justification or argument to support vigilante justice in a foreign country by people from the USA. I cannot see any benefit to interfering with a police investigation.
However, lots of people go missing every year. Natalee wasn't the only one.
Putting false information in the news, and requiring the Aruban authorities to release a statement contradicting Dave Holloway's claim, doesn't make much sense. It makes even less sense that Dave Holloway claims to know of someone who was involved in her disappearance and who was able to lead him to her remains, yet that person has not been arrested.
Is this another case of taking the law into their own hands and potentially tampering with evidence, or are there no bones and this is an example of the parents manipulating the public? What is behind the claim that there are bones when there are no bones, and the claim of having the name of a suspect, but that person's name is not released?
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Originally Posted by CA4Now
Who is "they"? The school faculty? Do you have a link to this info? I just find it odd that this teenager, who apparently was a straight-A student with a full scholarship to the University of Alabama, would be a big partier.
"According to her mother, Natalee was a typical American teenager, more driven than most, maybe, a fixture on Mountain Brook High's dance team who, Beth insists, never drank, never had a boyfriend, and never had sex. She is emphatic about this. Left unsaid is the assumption that this gave Natalee little experience in the kind of tequila-fueled revelry for which Aruba is famous. "Natalee was very smart, but," Beth acknowledges, "very naïve."
Still, Beth had no doubts about letting her daughter go on the Aruba trip. It was something of a tradition at Mountain Brook High School..."
Really? No, I don't have a link to this social media I saw at the time. I know her mother said she was a "virgin", but when her aunt arrived on the scene after she was missing, she strongly admonished all the teens not to tell stories, there could be time for that, but right now we need to all shut up about any of her misbehaviors. She shushed the stories in the interest of keeping the public fueled up toward finding her, rather than dismissing her as a wayward youth.
I don't think there is ANYONE who knew her, at this point in this long investigation, who would say Natalee wasn't a partier.
Really? No, I don't have a link to this social media I saw at the time. I know her mother said she was a "virgin", but when her aunt arrived on the scene after she was missing, she strongly admonished all the teens not to tell stories, there could be time for that, but right now we need to all shut up about any of her misbehaviors. She shushed the stories in the interest of keeping the public fueled up toward finding her, rather than dismissing her as a wayward youth.
I don't think there is ANYONE who knew her, at this point in this long investigation, who would say Natalee wasn't a partier.
They were all partiers, and it's true that there was concern that investigators wouldn't look for an adult who was drinking heavily and who wandered off with a local teen. Facts were withheld at the time the investigation started. Joran and his friends contradicted claims that Natalie didn't drink. The start of the investigation was muddied because police had to determine who was telling the truth: parents of Natalie, friends of Joran, friends of Natalie.
Today we have a similar situation where Natalie's father claims that he spoke to a suspect, but he hasn't provided the name of the suspect. He claims that he found human bones, but police say that isn't true.
It is true the us media often frames in a very black and white way. Not all media. But there is a strong element of that. Natalee being portrayed in the most positive way possible and Joran and everyone else in the most negative. In this case some Us medias covered the angle of Natalee partying. Others covered the theory of a drug overdose etc. It makes certain things likely or less likely. No one is judging Natalee for partying or ending up as a victim. This should be about solving crime not telling stories or about morality.
My own belief was somekind of accidental death where Joran fails to call the ambulance . And then later went to cover it up . Others have their own theory. Even now no one can say that is not what happened. After Stephany more people just think this guy straight out murdered Natalee also. The scenario of Joran date rape drugging Natalee was very extensively covered in Us media. Also possible. Imagine a situation where Joran was innocent to some degree or another. It could also not be really ruled out. It is not easy when there is a court of public judgement and a shadow of doubt stays. The Us media is merciless against people . It gets amplified by Beth Holloway. She is even now occasionally pointing the finger in public against those brothers. In the end Joran had some questions to answer to and did not come up with any answers. That's all what should have mattered. Not perceptions or ideas.
Joran did not really help his case. Not even really early on . Then later on revelations about his character came out. I don't think all that happened after 2005 really improved his character either. His reputation was beyond salvage after Vries tapes , even if you factor in that Joran seemed to want to impress this gangster type character there. Everyone knew Joran is going to end up in prison one way or the other.
I don't think there is ANYONE who knew her, at this point in this long investigation, who would say Natalee wasn't a partier.
I guess that's easy to say now.
“They said no, they tried to stop her,” McVay said of the friends who watched as Holloway drove away with three guys the girls had met the day before.
It was so unlike Holloway – a straight-A student who graduated near the top of her class and a full-scholarship winner who dreamed of becoming a doctor – to go off with virtual strangers, McVay said.
Sure, the vivacious blonde had an infectious smile and outgoing personality.
“You’re attracted to her. You want to be friends with her,” said McVay.
But she had smarts and maturity. She knew better, McVay said.
And that at 18, she was just considered a random adult in party-happy Aruba.
SAVIDGE: At the time, however, locals were not overly concerned with Natalee's disappearance. Julie Renfro is editor-in-chief of the newspaper "Aruba Today."
JULIE RENFRO, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "ARUBA TODAY": She was an adult. So there really wasn't a very --
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